NSW Schools Debating 2023

[DebatingNerd]

The Grammar's loss to Joeys is a huge shake up the run for the Rutledge Louat Shield.

It confirms Matt Toomey's boys are dead serious about their running - avoiding a terrible 0-2 start to the season. It's also proved that this year's ISDA champs aren't as untouchable as other people in this forum believe them to be. With one loss already taken, they have no second chance which means they must fight hard through the next 5 rounds of this season against a field that is more noticeably more evenly stacked across the board than in previous years.

It's also probably placed a very different group of teams as undefeated by this point in the competition, giving teams like Shore, Scots and High (if they presumably win their rounds) an open path on the runway to seriously gun for the premiership, meaning that Joey's and Grammar must take on the task of halting them in their tracks by defeating them. This makes the most interesting debates in the future Scots vs High (which is only next week), Grammar vs Scots and High vs Joeys (the week after) and finally the High vs Grammar debate.

Joey's always face the toughest schools early in the competition which means if they want to not rely on luck and secure the premiership with their own hands they must secure some crucial, crucial wins in the next 2 weeks.

Grammar and High always have their debate to round up the season, which means they cannot afford any slipups until then lest they not have any insurance in hand for the Premiership.

At this point a co-premiership looks more than inevitable unless High remain firm in not losing and continue to pull off critical wins for the remainder of the tournament.

No doubt GAS and GPSSpectator will have their two cents to add once we know the verdict of the High and Scots debates.

 

[thatWasToSay]

No doubt GAS and GPSSpectator will have their two cents to add once we know the verdict of the High and Scots debates.

High def Kings
Scots def Newington

 

[thatWasToSay]

At this point a co-premiership looks more than inevitable unless High remain firm in not losing and continue to pull off critical wins for the remainder of the tournament.

Co-premierships used to be very common place. From 1985-91 the majority of the premierships were joint in 1sts. 2nds still sees joint premierships relatively often (Grammar and Joeys shared last year). However, we haven’t seen one in 1sts since 2008 despite many years where a joint premiership seemed likely.

This year seems more likely to end up in a joint premiership than ever though. I can’t ever recall a more competitive GPS with more genuine contenders, and at this point I have absolutely no idea who the favourites are. This is unfolding to be a very exciting season!

 

[GPSspectator]

The Grammar's loss to Joeys is a huge shake up the run for the Rutledge Louat Shield.

It confirms Matt Toomey's boys are dead serious about their running - avoiding a terrible 0-2 start to the season. It's also proved that this year's ISDA champs aren't as untouchable as other people in this forum believe them to be. With one loss already taken, they have no second chance which means they must fight hard through the next 5 rounds of this season against a field that is more noticeably more evenly stacked across the board than in previous years.

It's also probably placed a very different group of teams as undefeated by this point in the competition, giving teams like Shore, Scots and High (if they presumably win their rounds) an open path on the runway to seriously gun for the premiership, meaning that Joey's and Grammar must take on the task of halting them in their tracks by defeating them. This makes the most interesting debates in the future Scots vs High (which is only next week), Grammar vs Scots and High vs Joeys (the week after) and finally the High vs Grammar debate.

Joey's always face the toughest schools early in the competition which means if they want to not rely on luck and secure the premiership with their own hands they must secure some crucial, crucial wins in the next 2 weeks.

Grammar and High always have their debate to round up the season, which means they cannot afford any slipups until then lest they not have any insurance in hand for the Premiership.

At this point a co-premiership looks more than inevitable unless High remain firm in not losing and continue to pull off critical wins for the remainder of the tournament.

No doubt GAS and GPSSpectator will have their two cents to add once we know the verdict of the High and Scots debates.

Are we 100% sure on the reliability of the tab? I've also heard that Grammar lost to Joeys but the tab says otherwise.

Assuming that's the tab is incorrect (which I believe is the case), the standings are:
- High, Scots, Shore on 2
- Grammar, Joeys on 1
- Kings, Newington, Riverview on 0

 

[The Bait]

What a great start to GPS, certainly living up to everyone’s high expectations.

We have fantastic topics thus far and absolutely brilliant adjudicators on the roster.

My call remains Grammar due to their sheer depth but it’s great to see other teams staking their claim as well. Also looking forward to seeing High debate the more serious contenders, starting next week.

 

[Asdyjftj]

Overall Wins	Round 1​	Round 2​	Total​
SBHS	8​	8​	16​
SIC	7​	7​	14​
SGS	7​	6​	13​
Shore	7​	3​	10​
TSC	3​	7​	10​
SJC	3​	4​	7​
Newington	2​	3​	5​
TKS	3​	2​	5​

Great to see some good depth in the programs being run by most schools, Kings and Newington haven't necessarily had an easy draw, but if their season continues as it has I'd imagine there might be some old boys disappointed with the state of their debating programs.

The Cup looks to be a three-way battle between Grammar, High and View on 2, with Joeys and Scots on 1. View might be an obvious favourite given they won ISDA Senior B, but they have changed their teams up.

 

[fact checker]

Overall Wins	Round 1​	Round 2​	Total​
SBHS	8​	8​	16​
SIC	7​	7​	14​
SGS	7​	6​	13​
Shore	7​	3​	10​
TSC	3​	7​	10​
SJC	3​	4​	7​
Newington	2​	3​	5​
TKS	3​	2​	5​

Great to see some good depth in the programs being run by most schools, Kings and Newington haven't necessarily had an easy draw, but if their season continues as it has I'd imagine there might be some old boys disappointed with the state of their debating programs.

The Cup looks to be a three-way battle between Grammar, High and View on 2, with Joeys and Scots on 1. View might be an obvious favourite given they won ISDA Senior B, but they have changed their teams up.

??? Grammar are reportedly on 1 and Riverview are on 0 having lost to Scots and Shore. Scots is also not on 1 but 2. The tab is there just read it!!

 

[Asdyjftj]

My post is there - just read it. It clearly says "overall wins", and follows my previous post after round 1 where I posted the overall number of wins for each school across each division. It is further contextualised by the discussion of a different division and the depth of programs being run by schools.

 

[Asdyjftj]

??? Grammar are reportedly on 1 and Riverview are on 0 having lost to Scots and Shore. Scots is also not on 1 but 2. The tab is there just read it!!

My post is there - just read it. It clearly says "overall wins", and follows my previous post after round 1 where I posted the overall number of wins for each school across each division. It is further contextualised by the discussion of a different division and the depth of programs being run by schools. I'm struggling to see how you could interpret that table as reflecting the 1sts results alone.

 

[fact checker]

My post is there - just read it. It clearly says "overall wins", and follows my previous post after round 1 where I posted the overall number of wins for each school across each division. It is further contextualised by the discussion of a different division and the depth of programs being run by schools.

What do you mean by "Grammar, High and View on 2, with Joeys and Scots on 1"?

 

[fact checker]

That aside, my actual favourites are SBHS and Grammar but Scots is shaping up to be a really strong contender led by a state speaker and a new COMBINED team line up coming off the back of a superb Eastside and Isda season. Hard to say what the strength of SBHS given their matchups haven't been the most competitive but their loss against the Yr 11 SGHS team worries me, especially when they're faced against speakers from Shore, Scots and Grammar.

 

[Asdyjftj]

What do you mean by "Grammar, High and View on 2, with Joeys and Scots on 1"?

In the 2nds division, which competes for the Cup, while the 1sts compete for the Louat Shield.

 

[fact checker]

In the 2nds division, which competes for the Cup, while the 1sts compete for the Louat Shield.

Ahh I see now - my bad, thought you were talking abt the firsts

 

[Debater]

Are we 100% sure on the reliability of the tab? I've also heard that Grammar lost to Joeys but the tab says otherwise.

View attachment 17127

Assuming that's the tab is incorrect (which I believe is the case), the standings are:
- High, Scots, Shore on 2
- Grammar, Joeys on 1
- Kings, Newington, Riverview on 0

The tab has been updated with Joeys beating Grammar.

 

[DebatingNerd]

Round 3 Predictions for GPS (I’ll do CAS later in the week if I have time):

Newington v Joeys

With Newington out of the run for the Premiership, the Joey’s side will aim to continue their run for the Premiership by cleaning up with a win this week. Last Friday in a David v Goliath-esque upset they defeated the ISDA-Champion Grammar side, the once-easy favourites for the premiership. They are serious, serious contenders for the Louat Shield and will be looking to take High down a notch in the following week too.

Joeys at 99-1

Scots v High

This is the matchup of this round in my opinion with two undefeated sides so far in the competition – even though they both have had relatively easy starts to the season.

Others in this forum have been very right to point out that Scots is being underappreciated by a heavy margin thus far with their State Speaker Jehiel Pather bolstering a team that too has a keen eye on the Premiership. High is another big contender for the Premiership and with the Joeys and Grammar debates still on the road ahead to the Louat Shield they will be looking to avert a loss at all costs.

This debate will set the tone for both of their respective Premiership runs so both sides will be fighting nail and teeth for this win.

I’m going to put this at a split.

50-50. It’s either side’s to take.

Kings v Riverview

Both sides have lost their bid for the Premiership. I still think it should be Riverview to take this due to a good ISDA run.

Riverview at 80-20

Shore v Grammar

This will be a very, very interesting round to say the least.

Shore is the team responsible for shaking up the GPS field this year in the first place taking a massive win against a very strong Joey’s side. It was they who forced the nail-biting Joeys v Grammar showdown in Round Two. With a State Speaker, Michael Kwak, now on their roster they have proven that if a big upset is necessary to win the Premiership, they are more than willing to pull it off.

Still, they are facing everyone’s favourite to win, the Grammar side.

They will be looking to avoid a horror knockout in Round 3 of the competition after an ISDA three-peat and to get back on their feet after a loss in Round 2. They will also be looking to pull Shore’s Premiership run down a peg. Shore will need to pull a monster performance out of their bag of tricks to send this side going home, but if the season has taught us anything, it is to never rule that out. Still, I am favouriting Grammar because of their incredible consistency.

Grammar at 70-30


To Conclude:
Great round full of great matchups. Some horror losses this way or that way could shake up all of our predictions for the Louat Shield this run. Scots and Shore have now seriously entered the run for the Premiership bolstered by NSW State Speakers and will be looking to inflict some very serious wounds on some very strong sides. All eyes should be on the High v Scots and Shore v Grammar debates.

 

[Debater]

Co-premierships used to be very common place. From 1985-91 the majority of the premierships were joint in 1sts. 2nds still sees joint premierships relatively often (Grammar and Joeys shared last year). However, we haven’t seen one in 1sts since 2008 despite many years where a joint premiership seemed likely.

This year seems more likely to end up in a joint premiership than ever though. I can’t ever recall a more competitive GPS with more genuine contenders, and at this point I have absolutely no idea who the favourites are. This is unfolding to be a very exciting season!

The interesting thing about the Grammar/Joeys joint seconds premiership last year is that both teams lost to Shore like Joeys already has. Joeys lost to Shore and Grammar in rounds 1 and 2 while Grammar lost to Shore and High in rounds 3 and 7 with a joint premiership on 5 wins. Also in 2014 more teams won the seconds premiership than didn't with a five-way tie for first. Firsts appear to have maxed out at two teams winning the premiership.

Both sides have lost their bid for the Premiership.

Although it seems unlikely, I am not completely convinced that losing your first two debates means you are out of the running. Especially given the tight nature of the competition this year.

 

[DebatingNerd]

Although it seems unlikely, I am not completely convinced that losing your first two debates means you are out of the running. Especially given the tight nature of the competition this year.

True, true 3-way 5-2 Premiership ties are possible.

 

[GAS]

CAS Mini Preview:

Aloys vs Barker (Round of the tournament):
With Barker reportedly taking the win against Knox, and Aloys beating out Cranbrook, this will be the round to decide the coveted CAS trophy. With Aloys being an ISDA finalist this year and Barker boasting a State Speaker, this promises to be a very close debate. However, given Barker's better form in being undefeated while Aloys suffered a shock upset to Waverly, one would have to tip Barker to take the cake in a very competitive debate.

60-40 Barker

Additional Note:
CAS will be selecting the Reps team and captain at the end of round 4. I expect 2 Barkers and 2 Aloys to be chosen. This has changed since last year when the Reps team was announced at the end of the season.

GPS coming soon...

 

[GAS]

GPS Preview (Scots vs High):

Shall be spreading out the previews this week.

Scots v High
This is definitely the debate of the round, with both teams being undefeated, and the Blackwatch boys having their eyes fixed on a potential first premiership for Scots in over a decade. However, that being said, High did knock the Australian Captain out of PDC and is being captained by Abarar Chowdhury (Member of the winning CHS Reps Team last year), who remains one of the strongest speakers in NSW, as evidenced by his two victories over the Australian Captain's Ruse team this year.

It's worth noting the merger of talent on the Scots side, with a unified Eastside and ISDA team. This might just be the wild card that narrows the gap more than we anticipated. Yet, with all cards on the table, High seems to have a slight edge. However, this round could very well define Scots' season, determining if their grand ambitions come to fruition.

60-40 High

 

[DebatingNerd]

GPS Preview (Scots vs High):

Shall be spreading out the previews this week.

Scots v High
This is definitely the debate of the round, with both teams being undefeated, and the Blackwatch boys having their eyes fixed on a potential first premiership for Scots in over a decade. However, that being said, High did knock the Australian Captain out of PDC and is being captained by Abarar Chowdhury (Member of the winning CHS Reps Team last year), who remains one of the strongest speakers in NSW, as evidenced by his two victories over the Australian Captain's Ruse team this year.

It's worth noting the merger of talent on the Scots side, with a unified Eastside and ISDA team. This might just be the wild card that narrows the gap more than we anticipated. Yet, with all cards on the table, High seems to have a slight edge. However, this round could very well define Scots' season, determining if their grand ambitions come to fruition.

60-40 High

Scots on the other hand does have Jehiel Pather who is evidently probably top 4 speakers in NSW at the moment. Scots wields the cream of the crop as he is very clearly an very incredibly debater in his own right who has already put up some absolutely fabulous performances in the NSDC season. Yet, High has shown that as a team of 4, together, they form a strong team that can put together a strong case which we know is what wins debates.

Also in terms of 1s team composition I think all teams are the same for the first Grade team as they were in ISDA/earlier in the year apart from two exceptions:
Shore: Moved Michael Kwak to Firsts - makes sense obviously
High: According to what I have heard from other coaches is changing their Firsts to include a Year 10 kid? It'd be interesting to see if he gets a nom for any GPS reps sides which I would anticipate since High already has 3 people in CHS reps. A Y10 being Firsts for any powerhouse school is no mean feat and its surprising for such a change to come so late in the season - maybe we shall see more of him in the future?

Grammar's Firsts are presumably still Kasra Roushan, Daniel Lloyd-Hurwitz, Remy Sloan and Will Ellis, I see no reason for why they would switch up a winning team. Despite a loss they are still by quite a margin my favourites to win the competition and have shown time and time again if it comes down to the wire, they can pull out win after win. Grammar is being captained by Remy Sloan who I think - despite his position - is a star speaker in NSW this year. Putting aside my own Grammar bias (that I will sheepishly admit) despite not trialling for NSWDU this year he has shown incredible strength in being an anchor for his own side while carrying on the experience from last year's legendary Grammar side which was perhaps one of the strongest teams across the board we have ever seen in NSW. If I do get to go to the High v Grammar debate, I keenly look forward to seeing how this group of boys will carry on such a heavy mantle to bear.