Australian Rugby / RA

[stillmissit]

There is a lot of blaming going on of the tool and not the tradie. The fact is we have been underperforming at Super Rugby and International level. You can't bring back the old fans let alone dream of creating new ones the way we are going.

We could create the best domestic league you could ask for but if the Wallabies sucked I'm confident the comp would wither as we would blame it.

We feed down from the Wallabies whether we like it or not. That's why it's so important they get it right.

Ghost. You are half right, the game does feed TV via the Wallabies but the quality of the Wallabies depends on the development of skills across all levels of rugby. At this time we have players who can't run and pass in front of a player, don't know what to do at the breakdown and have poor defence. There are other things but we have discussed all this ad infinitum..

 

[stillmissit]

While I understand your sentiment, that by definition is ultimately accepting your own demise.

Yes the game flows down from the Wallabies in Australia, the main reason why it is struggling so much, however that strategy for growth moving forward will become harder & harder to achieve especially for a sport that is barely struggling to maintain 4th or 5th spot in its own backyard.

As the other more dominant domestic codes increase there market share in Australia, Rugby will simply be unable to compete for resources & players to achieve competitive status for the Wallabies.

10, 20, 30 years from now, you simply won't be able to get it right regardless of what you do as you won't have the tools to do it.

If the game doesn't start to compete with the AFL/NRL/Soccer/Basketball and any other emerging codes at a grassroot domestic level moving forward, you simply will not have the athletes available for the Wallabies to compete with, because they will all be playing other sports.

Hoggy, we are facing this situation now, there is a shortage of players at all levels above under 10s? How can we have a bunch of youngsters enjoying running around and very few going on to play colts, senior clubs or subbies.

 

[Adam84]

Dru, The BIG question that I would be asking if I were in RA, before they start making changes is "What the F*** have the academies been doing?"

They're competing against codes and operating on comparatively less money year on year. Offering school kids a bag of training gear and free protein powder as a retention incentive doesn’t cut it anymore, other codes are signing kids to big money contracts or offering better academy programs and pathways.

 

[PhilClinton]

There is a lot of blaming going on of the tool and not the tradie. The fact is we have been underperforming at Super Rugby and International level. You can't bring back the old fans let alone dream of creating new ones the way we are going.

We could create the best domestic league you could ask for but if the Wallabies sucked I'm confident the comp would wither as we would blame it.

We feed down from the Wallabies whether we like it or not. That's why it's so important they get it right.

Really like this post.

The ARU/RA mantra has forever been 'I wanna be a Wallaby' and that will draw players and fans to the game.

I honestly can't remember any type of advertising throughout the life of Super Rugby (across all its iterations) that promoted rivalry or engagement with the club teams outside the QLD v NSW stuff. And no one gave two shits about their team once they flew over to South Africa for 3 weeks.

Now RA are left holding the bag because no one really wants to be a Wallaby (well not like they used to) and our professional competition hasn't been engaging for 10 years.

 

[noscrumnolife]

Really like this post.

The ARU/RA mantra has forever been 'I wanna be a Wallaby' and that will draw players and fans to the game.

I honestly can't remember any type of advertising throughout the life of Super Rugby (across all its iterations) that promoted rivalry or engagement with the club teams outside the QLD v NSW stuff. And no one gave two shits about their team once they flew over to South Africa for 3 weeks.

Now RA are left holding the bag because no one really wants to be a Wallaby (well not like they used to) and our professional competition hasn't been engaging for 10 years.

Well put by both you Phil and Ghost above.

This is the essential conundrum that RA have tied themselves into. On the one hand, they have put all their chips into a successful Wallabies brand for years now - it is the golden goose that sustains the meagre professional game still surviving.

Yet a successful Wallabies cannot exist without a strong domestic base underneath it. But without a successful Wallabies, that strong domestic competition cannot be grown, or invested into. And the problems roll on and on.

However, whilst this is certainly a conundrum I don't believe it is an unsolvable Gordian knot. It just requires smart use of resources, bloody good coaching, some innovative thinking, a lack of ego and hard work. Do we have the characters in place at the moment to embark on this journey? I don't know, but from what I've heard I have more faith in Waugh, Horne and hopefully Schmidt than many of the endless other mugs pervading the game for so long.

 

[stillmissit]

They're competing against codes and operating on comparatively less money year on year. Offering school kids a bag of training gear and free protein powder as a retention incentive doesn’t cut it anymore, other codes are signing kids to big money contracts or offering better academy programs and pathways.

So that's a bugger all is it? It doesn't take a lot of money to get guys fit and teach them the basics of the game.
Money is not the answer to everything, the cry RA doesn't give us enough money is a sign of failure.

 

[PhilClinton]

 

[Adam84]

So that's a bugger all is it? It doesn't take a lot of money to get guys fit and teach them the basics of the game.
Money is not the answer to everything, the cry RA doesn't give us enough money is a sign of failure.

No, not what I said.

Some of these academies are doing good work, but competing against codes and clubs with bigger budgets for academy programs, twice as many staff and healthy salaries for academy recruits directly reflects in outputs.

Money is absolutely a relevant subject. I know a couple working in the reds academy, and to say the academies aren’t doing anything is just crap. But they’re pissing into the wind when they walk into a meeting with a schoolboy athlete who has already sat down with the Broncos/ Dolphins/ Lions/ Cowboys. Whereas 15 years ago different story.

 

[stillmissit]

No, not what I said.

Some of these academies are doing good work, but competing against codes and clubs with bigger budgets for academy programs, twice as many staff and healthy salaries for academy recruits directly reflects in outputs.

Money is absolutely a relevant subject. I know a couple working in the reds academy, and to say the academies aren’t doing anything is just crap. But they’re pissing into the wind when they walk into a meeting with a schoolboy athlete who has already sat down with the Broncos/ Dolphins/ Lions/ Cowboys. Whereas 15 years ago different story.

If they are sitting down with a talented boy then we have the wrong approach to dealing with highly talented youngsters. I am more in favour of them doing their job and putting out youngsters who can pass and catch, tackle and kick (if necessary) etc etc. At this time it strikes me they are not doing their core functions effectively and the signs are there for all to see.

 

[LeCheese]

If they are sitting down with a talented boy then we have the wrong approach to dealing with highly talented youngsters. I am more in favour of them doing their job and putting out youngsters who can pass and catch, tackle and kick (if necessary) etc etc. At this time it strikes me they are not doing their core functions effectively and the signs are there for all to see.

One of the core functions of the wider academy and junior programs is to identify and secure promising talent, and then work on their development. The latter can't happen without the former and, to Adam's point, we're struggling to compete with other codes.

 

[LevitatingSocks]

While I understand your sentiment, that by definition is ultimately accepting your own demise.

Yes the game flows down from the Wallabies in Australia, the main reason why it is struggling so much, however that strategy for growth moving forward will become harder & harder to achieve especially for a sport that is barely struggling to maintain 4th or 5th spot in its own backyard.

As the other more dominant domestic codes increase there market share in Australia, Rugby will simply be unable to compete for resources & players to achieve competitive status for the Wallabies.

10, 20, 30 years from now, you simply won't be able to get it right regardless of what you do as you won't have the tools to do it.

If the game doesn't start to compete with the AFL/NRL/Soccer/Basketball and any other emerging codes at a grassroot domestic level moving forward, you simply will not have the athletes available for the Wallabies to compete with, because they will all be playing other sports.

You've put my thoughts into writing better than I could.

It's difficult to produce 23 elite players for a test rugby if you aren't willing to support a critical mass of good to great players in the tier beneath playing a large volume of competitive, high-stakes games.

I'd prefer for rugby not to become similar to most Olympic sports where only the national representative side has relevance to the general public every 4 years.

 

[LevitatingSocks]

One of the core functions of the wider academy and junior programs is to identify and secure promising talent, and then work on their development. The latter can't happen without the former and, to Adam's point, we're struggling to compete with other codes.

Scouting and talent identification has become almost too good as different sports have become more lucrative.

If you are an elite athlete someone will find you and offer a place in a development pathway or a contract. For example AFL teams will scout US college basketball for uncommonly tall guys who aren't NBA grade and put the effort in to teach them how to kick.

It's led to less room in any game or code for highly skilled, technical players who do not possess elite size/strength/speed/agility. You need those guys at the far end of the normal distribution to be competitive in anything.

 

[stillmissit]

One of the core functions of the wider academy and junior programs is to identify and secure promising talent, and then work on their development. The latter can't happen without the former and, to Adam's point, we're struggling to compete with other codes.

I've had some dealings with the supply side of this situation. In 25 years of Reffing in Sydney and 6 years of coaching and managing in West Sydney, I have never seen or heard from a person at an academy in Sydney. What happened in the clubs I was associated with was that the coach suggested a young player had potential and supplied details to the academy and they did their analysis of suitability. They never initiated any contact that I can remember. If they are following the schools I would not know but in terms of Colts there was zero contact.

In one young Islander boy who was sent there, they bulked him up and he ended up with major ligament and joint issues also he slowed down a fair bit. He persevered for a couple of years then gave the game away, his father had played for one of the Island's national teams.
I have not spoken to anyone in rugby who has praised the Academy during my time, but I have been out of it for the last 6 years.

 

[stillmissit]

Scouting and talent identification has become almost too good as different sports have become more lucrative.

If you are an elite athlete someone will find you and offer a place in a development pathway or a contract. For example AFL teams will scout US college basketball for uncommonly tall guys who aren't NBA grade and put the effort in to teach them how to kick.

It's led to less room in any game or code for highly skilled, technical players who do not possess elite size/strength/speed/agility. You need those guys at the far end of the normal distribution to be competitive in anything.

It's an area where we are rank amateurs who can only ID players like Beale etc. where it is obvious.
I just remembered running the touch for a state schools knock out comp, there were several young players who I thought showed promise, and there was one guy who was taking notes, I was told the only one he was interested in was a country boy who it was obvious to everyone was the best in the 6? teams. So much for talent ID.

 

[LevitatingSocks]

It's an area where we are rank amateurs who can only ID players like Beale etc. where it is obvious.
I just remembered running the touch for a state schools knock out comp, there were several young players who I thought showed promise, and there was one guy who was taking notes, I was told the only one he was interested in was a country boy who it was obvious to everyone was the best in the 6? teams. So much for talent ID.

It's a bit of a tricky problem because of the financial situation I imagine. Not resourced well enough to compete monetarily with the NRL who will throw money at juniors and pay their way at Nudgee, but also stretched enough that we can't afford to take on a broader range of promising but riskier talents knowing that most won't play anything beyond club reserve grade.

I think scouts are just rationally responding to the incentives in front of them knowing you only have x amount of money or spots in the academy.

It's safer to go for the obvious standouts or physical freaks that might have just hit puberty earlier, because it's easier to defend your initial decision at a performance review. Trophies, physical measurements, and weight room numbers fit nicely on an excel spreadsheet.

Much harder to quantify something like a scrumhalf that has great instinct for the flow of the game and even harder to justify it if you take him on and he never ends up maturing physically to the needed level.

 

[Adam84]

i still think it's mis-guided to criticise and blame the performance of a handful of largely part-time employees in chronically underfunded academy programs, it's missing the real issue in this situation.

Broncos academy/development program/development officer/talent identification officer network is 3x the size of the Reds, not including what the QRL then does on top.

 

[LevitatingSocks]

i still think it's mis-guided to criticise and blame the performance of a handful of largely part-time employees in chronically underfunded academy programs, it's missing the real issue in this situation.

Broncos academy/development program/development officer/talent identification officer network is 3x the size of the Reds, not including what the QRL then does on top.

how much is something like Q cup paying their lower end guys?

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Super Rugby U16s has been a great chance to condense our talent and expose it to all the franchises. Yes, NRL sides would be watching it but isn't it a great chance for the Force to watch the NSW kids up close and identify targets.

They are getting in the gear and playing for their sides. Picking the U16s Australian side was another good move. Only so much Rugby can do and the last 4-5 years have been going in the right direction I believe.

 

[Adam84]

how much is something like Q cup paying their lower end guys?

$300-$400 per match, higher up guys will get $1000 per match, that's not including NRL players sent back to Q Cup

 

[PhilClinton]

how much is something like Q cup paying their lower end guys?

It's not just QCup level guys getting paid either. When I coached Colts there were a number of guys who bailed from the club to play lower grades league for a few years. They'd get all their kit paid for, beers after the games for free and match payments (I think $50 back in the early 2000s) if they won.