Queensland Schools Rugby Merger Idea

[BaysideBird]

Hi everybody,
I have been thinking about the GPS and AIC and also TAS and how their rugby competitions seem so one sided. Ussually the school with the most money ends up having the best players, etc. What I thought is that all these rugby competitions should combine into a 3 or 4 division promotion/relegation competition. This would mean that the schools in AIC like Marist would be able to compete with schools like BGS and BBC who IMO are sides that Ashgrove could compete with. Please give me your thoughts on this idea and what structure of divisions and school placings you believe would happen. Here's mine:

Divison 1

1. Nudgee College
2. BSHS
3. TSS
4. Marist Ashgrove
5. BBC
6. BGS
7. IGS
8. ACGS

Division 2

1. Padua
2. TGS
3. SLC
4. Villa
5. Iona
6. GT
7. Downlands
8. SEC
9. SPC

Division 3

1. Moreton Bay Boys College
2. SPLC
3. St Pauls
4. St Columbans
5. SCGS
6. Ormiston
7. Canterbury College
8. John Paul College
9. West Moreton Anglican College

BTW this is only for 1st XV. Other age groups and divisions would be still GPS, AIC and TAS and is based on this years results. THIS IS A FANTASY THREAD!

 

[Dark Shark]

I understand what you are trying to achieve. However, before we even take into the various school association views, I see one major problem with this. That is deciding who gets promoted and who gets relegated.

Just say this year, you have a crack team that smashes Div 2 and gets promoted into Div 1. Next year in 2012, the school retains none of the 2011 First XV (as they were all in year 12) and the new year level are very weak and not anywhere near the standard of the 2011 team. There will be a bloodbath.

You may say the promotion and relegation can be decided on the u16 results in the prior year. Is this fair to a school that may play a large amount of its u16 players in the First XV that year, find it has no depth with the u16's left and get smashed from pillar to post and find themselves relegated next year but with a core group of battle hardened players playing in their second year but relegated as a result of the school playing its best 15 players in the First XV in the first year.

Promotion and relegation has merit in competitions which are consistent from year to year. Unfortunately where wide variations can exist between year level talent I believe that it is difficult to use such a concept.

A possible variation is to have something akin to England's FA Cup with a knock out competition for all teams. Still, I believe you will see wide variations up until quarter final time, so do not know if this will achive the purpose of a closer fought competition that you were looking for.

 

[gtjack]

All you've done is put Ashgrove into the GPS and move Terrace, TGS and Downlands (pretty much are a GPS school in Rugby) into the AIC. GPS and AIC don't represent Division 1 and 2, they represent different types of schools in terms of age, tradition and, in a lot of cases, financial resources.

That's not to say your idea doesn't have merit.

The model I'd employ would be for the GPS and AIC to remain in their current forms, just with a tournament for rugby held in term 2 (with the GPS switching rugby to term 3 solely, however AIC and other schools would also have to make this change). My model would more so be based on a pool system, trying to get schools that don't usually play each other together (as well as geography, splitting TGS and Downlands or IGS and SEC doesn't make much sense).

With 17 schools, 4 pools of 4 (one of 5) would be used, with a finals format somewhat similar to Super rugby crossed with the Rugby World Cup.

In all fairness, I don't see the point of having TAS schools (who usually get beaten by AIC schools) running up against the might of Nudgee College, State High or TSS and losing by 100.

Pool 1
Brisbane Boys' College, TSS, St Patrick's , St Peter's
Pool 2
ACGS, BSHS, Villa, St. Laurence's
Pool 3
St Joseph's College, Gregory Terrace, Brisbane Grammar School, Nudgee College, Padua
Pool 4
TGS, Downlands, Ipswich Grammar School, St Edmund's
(These would need more refinement)

Finals - Top 8
All pool winners advance, based on record, then the next best 4 on points advance. Points would be allocated the same way as in Super Rugby.

(Based on this year)

1. Nudgee
2. Churchie
3. Ipswich
4. TSS
5. Brisbane Grammar
6. State High
7. Padua
8. Ashgrove

The final would eventually be Nudgee vs Churchie (I can't see too many upsets), with Nudgee making up for the round 1 loss to Churchie to take out the title.


All this being said, I don't think the concept would ever come to fruition, on a number of levels.
1. Schools are for education, not rugby. How many principal's would agree to the extra training and games on top of a senior student's workload?
2. The GPS schools would still win, just they'd have to trounce a few AIC teams to prove it. Great.
3. Time and field constraints
And a whole heap of other problems that I can't think of right now but would surely come up.

 

[fourgreatkids]

why not do it like they do in New Zealand, where they go from Schools comp Champs (eg GPS champs or TAS Champs), the champs then play other School comp champs in the state and then from state to national, thus crowning a national school champion??

 

[gecko]

The obvious floor with your promotion relegation system is that talent can fluctuate across cohorts. your system wouldn't guarantee strength vs strength.

I'd suggest:
Div 1:
10 teams

Div 2:
8 teams

Div 3:
8 teams

Divisions would be from 13s to opens, As to Ds. A great benefit of this is that it prevents St Peters playing Marist in a B or C game and minimises the inevitable thrashings. Plenty of players come through from 13 and 14 B and Cs etc to make firsts and even higher honours, mismatches benefit no one.

Qualification for a division it determined by previous years results, possibly in combination with trial results.

So the qualifiers for 13s would be determined by either trials form, CIC 7s or historical strength.

14s qualification would be determined by 13s results the previous year. 15s qualification by 14s results the previous year. 1sts/Opens qualification determined either through 15s results 2 years previous (potentially reduces the benefits of bringing in imports late) or through trial results, or a combination there of. The bottom Div 1 team would face the top Div 2 team in a relegation match and the 2nd bottom div 1 team would face the 2nd div 2 team. One method of determining firsts qualification for say 2011 would be the top 8 from U15 2009 automatically qualify while preseason in 2011 the bottom 2 from div one and top 2 from div 2 play a home and away leg to determine who qualifies.

This would ensure the best teams play each other and that this occurs throughout all the grades.


Of course a meritocracy is unlikely to ever be tolerated in schoolboy rugby, that's just not what schoolboy is about, so this is fantasy stuff.

 

[hatman]

Paty 305 - Never seen anything so unworkable. What criteria for promotion & demotion? Is it only for the opens? Is it only for the 1stXV, all open teams or the whole school? Who works out the logistics, administrarion - GPS, AIC etc? Is it for sports outside rugby? If a team gets flogged in 1 year are they immediately demoted?
Some people have too free time.

 

[Swarley]

This would mean that the schools in AIC like Marist would be able to compete with schools like BGS and BBC who IMO are sides that Ashgrove could compete with

BTW this is only for 1st XV. Other age groups and divisions would be still GPS, AIC and TAS

Two things. Firstly, don't write off schools like BBC and BGS so easily. BGS beat IGS, came close against Churchie and have two boys in QLD 1. BBC have been playing good rugby as well, not only this year but for the past few seasons. Secondly, there's no way any of these schools would agree to a competition where the 1st XV play at a different location to the rest of the school. Not only does it have a negative effect on the flagship team by eliminating crowd support, it also means the school has to keep 7 players from the 2nd XV for the bench, weakening the quality of opens rugby but also robbing the players of game time.

 

[light]

Agreed on the location issue, taking away first XV games from the remainder of games doesn't make sense. This certainly isn't a bad idea though, keeping the stronger teams separate is important and I doubt many of the AIC teams would be up in the same category as BSHS, NC, ACGS, IGS, TSS and the like. Perhaps Marist years of the past, Villa last year and Padua this year could be competitive. Swarley, for the record I'd have BBC lower than Padua, Ash and SLC. BGS have been underperforming and as much as you'd like to base the teams on paper it would be far more beneficial to go on record, I'd have Padua and Ash ahead of BGS personally.

If this were to ever come into fruition I think they would have to be separate competitions rather than the one comp with many different tiers or a knockout system. NC, IGS, ACGS, BSHS, TSS, Padua, Ash, Downlands as one ladder; BBC, BGS, GT, TGS and AIC making up the rest.

 

[gecko]

Agreed on the location issue, taking away first XV games from the remainder of games doesn't make sense. This certainly isn't a bad idea though, keeping the stronger teams separate is important and I doubt many of the AIC teams would be up in the same category as BSHS, NC, ACGS, IGS, TSS and the like. Perhaps Marist years of the past, Villa last year and Padua this year could be competitive. Swarley, for the record I'd have BBC lower than Padua, Ash and SLC. BGS have been underperforming and as much as you'd like to base the teams on paper it would be far more beneficial to go on record, I'd have Padua and Ash ahead of BGS personally.

If this were to ever come into fruition I think they would have to be separate competitions rather than the one comp with many different tiers or a knockout system. NC, IGS, ACGS, BSHS, TSS, Padua, Ash, Downlands as one ladder; BBC, BGS, GT, TGS and AIC making up the rest.

I don't think you could promote Padua and demote others based on a single season. Most years Padua have been whipping boys and there's no guarantee next year their 1sts will be up there. Padua for instance were poor in 14a, 15a and 16a.

You could maybe promote and relegate schools but there'd need to be a system. It would need to account for more than just the previous year's 1sts results.

If you're going to promote on 1sts ability you need to think about the rest of the grades as well. Hypothetically for instance do you promote Padua because the 1sts will lose by 10 less points then say TGS vs Nudgee, meanwhile their other A teams are 10-20 points worse off than TGS and their B and C teams 30 points worse off and they do not even field D or E teams.

There's a whole Saturday of fixtures across sometimes 25+ grades, do you demote 24 other grades where the school is better because a single team is better?

 

[light]

I was basing it on this years performances, the teams would obviously alter each year.

 

[Doc]

It's always funny when a few things go bad for a school or schools all these ideas come out.

Certainly a creative idea, but will not happen for a myriad of reasons, most described in post #2 with age groups changing each year.

The structure is clearly based on this year alone. Two years ago BGS would have struggled in the third tier. Last year GT came 4th in GPS and historically, as in last 4-5 years, have had the wood on BGS, BBC, TGS, IGS, heck even ACGS have probably lost as many as the won to GT over last 6 years. So if we started this for the 2010 season BGS and BBC would have to be in div 2 with GT in 1, or for 2011 ACGS, BBC, IGS would all be in division 2 before GT. There is too much variability.

Then if you look at the AIC schools, there is definite improvement and the NC/Marist games of late 90s were some rippers, but realistically when was the last time an AIC team beat a GPS team? Example using GPS easybeats GT. Marist haven't beat GT since 1993, not winning any of the past four games since 2006.

 

[BaysideBird]

Guys it was just an idea. stop hating.

 

[Steve-O]

I have a better idea, lets keep it seperate AIC and GPS, because both competitions this year have been very close. There were certainly no one sided games in the AIC this year, mabye a couple with Terrace in gps but still overall, this is one of the closest years for both comps

 

[RugbyInterest]

There is one thing they should solve - Downlands does not play in a competition generally playing the GPS schools on their bye and some AIC schools in trials - for the good of rugby, they should be in a competition giving them something to play for. From recent results, the logical place for them would in AIC. They might be some bleating about travel but given that GPS schools travel to Toowoomba and Southport, this should not be a burden. The competitions would then be the same length and the byes could then be used for the traditional derbies (eg Ash v Nudgee, TGS v Downlands)

 

[What2040]

Guys it was just an idea. stop hating.

Paty305

great fantasy thread - good solid thoughts but just won't happen (unfortunately)

 

[Knockers]

Light- How has BGS been underperforming? They have won 4/6 GPS games. They came close to likely premiership winners ACGS. You also say that IGS is ahead of BGS- but BGS beat IGS in round 2. You also imply that Downlands are better than BGS- but BGS defeated downlands when they were resting 4 key players. Also, TGS are on the improve. Although they have not won many games, I think they will place 6th or 7th in GPS nex season. This season for GT was a one off- they will do better next year. BBC constantly place around 7th, 8th or 9th. I agree that the likes of Ashgrove and Padua would be competitive with GT and BBC- but definitely not with BGS and TGS.

I have also heard that GT defeated Ashgrove in a trial match before the GPS and AIC seasons kicked-off.

Reconsider, Light.

 

[Silverback]

Unfortunately I think school rugby will be challenged over the next 5 - 10 years.
The GPS decision to move rugby to term 3 leaves term 2 for soccer (AKA Football), debating, tennis and cross country and then term 3 rugby competes with athletics and Basket ball.
Mum power in terms of dictating the sport played by kids and influcening decisons about school attendance has won. I don't think schools competeing for enrollemnts and $ will be able to resist this push.
Freinds who attended private schools some years ago tell me that rugby was more or less complusory and I don't think that it will be long before 1st XV games will be being played on the "Back oval".
Sad but as far as I can see it is enevitable.
Given this situation I think rugby's only hope is to build its focus on club rugby. As far as I know, teenage club rugby has historically been weak, largely influenced by the impact of school rugby. That is fine but if school rugby wanes then kids need a quality alternative to play rugby.
I am told that a number of kids who are esentially club rugby players performed well for CSS at the school boys trials and got rep honours. This has to be seen as a positive and hopefully encourage kids to get into club rugby as well if the school program is not providing enough quality rugby. Remember it is not all about 1stXV and rep. There are planty of kids who want to play for the fun of it.
I think the QJRU are working hard to build teen club rugby and their staging of state championships and selecting city - country and Qld teams is a credit to them and gives club players great opportunities.
I think the idea of a post season comp based on performance is a good idea. It could be a bowl plate Cup thing with the top 2 or 3 from each comp playing off for the Cup, 4,5 and 6 playing off for Plate etc, you could bring Ballymore cup winners in as well. It would need to be short or in a carnival type environment but would allow some cross competition exposure with an opportunity for a positive outcome for all teams regardless of school size, finances etc. In fact it could be played at the same time as the national titles. Having the Qld players out would make it interesting and give some others an opportunity at a higher level.
Anyway I think that is more than my two bob's worth.

 

[fourgreatkids]

Unfortunately I think school rugby will be challenged over the next 5 - 10 years.
The GPS decision to move rugby to term 3 leaves term 2 for soccer (AKA Football), debating, tennis and cross country and then term 3 rugby competes with athletics and Basket ball.
Mum power in terms of dictating the sport played by kids and influcening decisons about school attendance has won. I don't think schools competeing for enrollemnts and $ will be able to resist this push.
Freinds who attended private schools some years ago tell me that rugby was more or less complusory and I don't think that it will be long before 1st XV games will be being played on the "Back oval".
Sad but as far as I can see it is enevitable.
Given this situation I think rugby's only hope is to build its focus on club rugby. As far as I know, teenage club rugby has historically been weak, largely influenced by the impact of school rugby. That is fine but if school rugby wanes then kids need a quality alternative to play rugby.
I am told that a number of kids who are esentially club rugby players performed well for CSS at the school boys trials and got rep honours. This has to be seen as a positive and hopefully encourage kids to get into club rugby as well if the school program is not providing enough quality rugby. Remember it is not all about 1stXV and rep. There are planty of kids who want to play for the fun of it.
I think the QJRU are working hard to build teen club rugby and their staging of state championships and selecting city - country and Qld teams is a credit to them and gives club players great opportunities.
I think the idea of a post season comp based on performance is a good idea. It could be a bowl plate Cup thing with the top 2 or 3 from each comp playing off for the Cup, 4,5 and 6 playing off for Plate etc, you could bring Ballymore cup winners in as well. It would need to be short or in a carnival type environment but would allow some cross competition exposure with an opportunity for a positive outcome for all teams regardless of school size, finances etc. In fact it could be played at the same time as the national titles. Having the Qld players out would make it interesting and give some others an opportunity at a higher level.
Anyway I think that is more than my two bob's worth.

what the hell? if anything Schoolboy rugby, in particular GPS in Queensland, has grown into a monumentous thing. There are bigger crowds and more old boys turning out to support their flagship teams. I do not think Rugby will fail in schools, not with the continued support of Old boys pumping money into the school

 

[Galloper]

I have also heard that GT defeated Ashgrove in a trial match before the GPS and AIC seasons kicked-off.

.

99% sure they didn't play this year.

 

[RugbyInterest]

confirmed

understand GT are playing St Kevins from Melbourne in a friendly next week - might be a chance for a win there