Gay Rugby World Cup

[southsider]

seeing it was mentioned above, what are peoples thoughts on race team/tournaments then? i know some of them limit/dont allow involvement from outside groups?

or games like the rugby league indigenous all stars.

good or bad?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Not everyone marching in Sydney Mardi Gras is Gay or Lesbian, Bi or Transsexual. It is not a prerequisite. Obviously participants are generally of the type that are not threatened by being in the presence of Gays, Lesbians, Bi's and Trannies, and are happy to participate in an activity that is designed to raise awareness about, and celebrate sexual diversity.

Same with the Mark Bingham Trophy. If you are intimidated about being in close proximity with "poofs", "queers", "fags" or whatever other derisive term takes your fancy, then don't participate.

If you have a problem with a bunch of like minded people gathering together to participate in a sports tournament which also raises awareness about some discriminatory and stereotyping issues, then exercise your democratic right not to attend the activity.

Do not deny those same people their rights to free assembly.

I do not think that anyone participating in "Mark" is expecting any sort of special treatment because of their sexuality, and as has been repeated many times on this thread, "Mark" is not just for gay players.

It is not grandstanding in any way shape or form.

Please read some of the history of Mark Kendall Bingham: who he was, what he stood for and what he did in his life.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

seeing it was mentioned above, what are peoples thoughts on race team/tournaments then? i know some of them limit/dont allow involvement from outside groups?

or games like the rugby league indigenous all stars.

good or bad?

Rugby league indigenous all stars - Mungo game. Do what they want, I don't care what they do in Mungoland.

Rugby Indigenous All Stars - Would love to see it happen. Lloyd McDermott Development team does a wonderful job in this area.

New Zealand Maori - No problem.

New Zealand Non-Maoris vs NZ Maoris. Interesting concept. The Maori clearly identify as a tribal and cultural group. There doesn't seem to be any central cultural, community, or sectarian theme binding the NZ Non-Maoris together as an entity except that they are not Maori, and that is probably not reason enough.

Taking it to a Rugby level. What about an Indigenous Rugby World Cup? I'd support that but the bloody Darker Darknessers would probably win that as well. Without getting into a shitfight over the the qualification criteria for "Indigenous", then I am sure that some of the Saffer tribes could put together some competitive tribal based teams to have a go at NZ Maori, PI Selection, Aust Aboriginal, Kenya Masi (?) tribes, etc in a World Cup.

Like the gay/lesbian issue I would not feel intimidated or discriminated against by the existance of that tournament or those teams.

 

[Fly]

Hey Gentlemen,
My first post, but feel i'm uniquely placed to comment.

Mark Bingham was a close friend of mine. Yesterday marked 11 years since we lost him.
I have played in x4 Bingham Cups. Won 2 of them. Played in the Final in a 3rd. And ran 3rd in my final one.
I'm a straight guy. While a lot of my Brothers are gay, I have never been that way inclined.

Mark along with a handful of us started the San Francisco Fog in 2000 in a pub - where things of this nature start.
As a straight, married guy living in San Francisco with a bunch of Gay buddies , and after playing here at home since I was 4 years old, I thought it was a great idea for me to lend a hand.
I loved the idea of creating a place to be able to play for everyone. Gay, straight, black, white - if you had never seen a Rugby ball in your life that was cool. We would teach you. We had the opportunity to create a "Rugby Utopia" - and we did. I was very much the "token straight guy" in the early years - but it didn't bother me and it didn't bother them. We were all there for one thing - to play Football.

A year later and September rolls around. Needless to say it was pretty heavy. We knew Mark was on that plane as he was coming back for practice that evening.
In his honor we created the Bingham Cup.

The first was held in San Francisco in 2002. We were lucky winners in the Final against a tough as nails London team. The joy on the faces of my Brothers - who mostly had never won any kind of sporting endevor in their life was memorable - to say the least. I was interviewed by NPR (National Public Radio) before the tournament began (as the "token" i'd imagine) and was asked an interesting question. "What's it like for a straight guy playing Gay Rugby?". I had not thought of it like that before and thought it was strange to do so. I told the guy, "Dude, I don't play Gay Rugby. I play Rugby. It's the same game they play in the UK/NZ and at home in Australia. Same rules. I just happen to play it with bunch of Gay guys."

The second in 2004 was in London. It was a crazy week and ended with us going back-to-back after beating Manchester in the Final.
I carried the Bingham Cup back to San Francisco. When I checked in on British Airways I was upgraded to Busines Class. The Cup rode in the spare seat next to me back to the City of Champions.
Later that year we created a Womens team with the same ethos. Anyone, anywhere, any background, any size, you have a home here. We will teach you.
We also started going into local schools to run clinics on the same principles.

3rd Bingham Cup was in New York. Another crazy week with games played on a field out in the East River.
Had to rake the stones and glass off the field into huge mounds before each game. Classy.
We made the final where we faced a new team on the block - Sydney. Interestingly, started by another buddy of mine who played with me in San Francisco during the 1st Cup. Being an Aussie also he came home and started the Convicts. And what a team it was. Solid and tough all over the park. They beat us in the New York summer swealter by about 16-12 if I recall correctly.

The 4th and my final Cup in Dublin was in 2008. More new classy teams on the block included a gritty New York team who beat us for a shot at the Final. Sydney was already there waiting.
Sydney did the job on them quite easily from what I remember - which was not much. I got my teeth knockled out on the Final play of the game V's New York.

Whats the point in all this? Not much aside from explaining that your sexuality means nothing. As did your ability mean nothing, your experience, your race or your religion.
It's not as if you have to show some of kind of "Gay ID" in order to get a run.
What you do have to posses is a love for the game and a desire to have under-represented people play it.
Its the game the play in Heaven. Best to get everyone started on it down here before they get there right?

Mark is waiting.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Fly,
Welcome to Gaggerland. What a magnificent first post.

I'll bet you are looking forward to coming to Sydney in 2014 then.

One question. Australians are known for their irreverance. If something doesn't have a nickname, we invent one. The William Webb Ellis Cup is known to Aussies as "Bill".

I have initiated a campaign do likewise with "Mark" for the Mark Kendall Bingham Memorial Tournament. Before I get too excited, does the "Mark" already have a nickname, and if so what is it?

 

[Fly]

Hey Hugh,
I was born and raised in country NSW. I have been back for the last 3 years - hence me missing "Mark" in 2010 and 2012.
I currently play 1's for a local subbie club in 2nd Division. At 37 i've still got a big bag of tricks.

Mark did have a nickname. It was Bear Trap.
Don't really know why - but he was big enough to decide whataver the hell name he wanted to be called - and you wouldn't argue.

By the way.....
The Convicts have made the their Division Grand Final this weekend. I can highly recommend anyone getting out and supporting them at Maquarie Fields if you can.
My current club has has one team make the final in D2 - which unfortunatley means I'll be out at T.G Milner watching them.

 

[Fly]

Oh, and no, the trophy itself does not have a nickname.

It does have one of Mark's favourite quotes inscribed on it though - a few famous lines from Shakespeare's Henry V - which incidently sums up the whole Gay/Rugby/IGRAB thing nicely:

"We few, we happy few, we band of Brothers,
For he today who sheds his blood with me,
Shall be my Brother."

Maybe you could call it 'Henry"?

 

[Scoey]

Hey Fly, nice post/s. The first one gave me goose bumps. You summed up all the things I love about Rugby.

 

[matty_k]

I have to ask. Was IGRAB deliberate or just an amusing happenstance?

 

[Fly]

haha.
Probably a bit of both to be honest.

There needed to be a central organizing outfit in order to maintain oepration control as things grew.
There were 12 teams in the first Bingham Cup in San Francisco.
This has grown now to 30 -odd teams in the last Cup in Manchester last year - and i'm not sure of the exact number but i think its like 57 teams now around the world.
All with the same mission - A place where traditonally under-represented people in Rugby can come and learn and play.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Oh, and no, the trophy itself does not have a nickname.

It does have one of Mark's favourite quotes inscribed on it though - a few famous lines from Shakespeare's Henry V - which incidently sums up the whole Gay/Rugby/IGRAB thing nicely:

"We few, we happy few, we band of Brothers,
For he today who sheds his blood with me,
Shall be my Brother."

Maybe you could call it 'Henry"?

Fly,

Here is a nickname compromise, which recognises both the inscription from (the other) Bill (Shakespeare), and Bear Trap Bingham.

The tournament nickname is "Mark" or "The Mark" as in "we're off to The Mark in Sydney", or "Are you going to see Mark in Sydney?"

The Trophy presented at "The Mark" is "Henry", as in "We won Henry in Sydney back in 2014", or "I got the seat next to Henry on the plane back from Mark".

As someone closely connected to The Mark, almost Mark royalty, your comments carry some weight in the eventual official nickname.

 

[DPK]

Fly,

Do you think there is a culture of intolerance against homosexuals in rugby union?

 

[southsider]

haha.
Probably a bit of both to be honest.

There needed to be a central organizing outfit in order to maintain oepration control as things grew.
There were 12 teams in the first Bingham Cup in San Francisco.
This has grown now to 30 -odd teams in the last Cup in Manchester last year - and i'm not sure of the exact number but i think its like 57 teams now around the world.
All with the same mission - A place where traditonally under-represented people in Rugby can come and learn and play.

im a bit confused fly ive looked at some of your posts and what other have said, its called a world cup, which i assume would be countries and ive seen people say Australia has won it twice, but then ive seen you talk about teams from manchester or teams from sydney. So my question is how do the teams exactly work? Does one city represent each country or can multiple teams and if either win its considered a win for the country or is it just national teams playing and ive completly misinturpreted some of the posts??

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Southsider,

Teams from all over the world play. The winner is then the world champion.

It may not be an IRB endorsed tournament, but it is IGRAB endorsed.

Someone from Australia wins a tournament that teams from all over the world enter, regardless of whether they are national teams or not, then I'll claim it as an Australian victory.

What countries play in the World Series Baseball?

 

[southsider]

Southsider,

Teams from all over the world play. The winner is then the world champion.

It may not be an IRB endorsed tournament, but it is IGRAB endorsed.

Someone from Australia wins a tournament that teams from all over the world enter, regardless of whether they are national teams or not, then I'll claim it as an Australian victory.

What countries play in the World Series Baseball?

fair enough then, suprised sydney uni havent put in a team then, im sure they would love to be able to claim to be the world champions at somthing rugby related

 

[Fly]

Hi DPK - While I don't want to say "culture" - without a doubt intolerance exists towards homosexuals in rugby.
Its happened directly to me many times - and remember, I'm a straight guy!
I have played against teams that have dropped horrid gay slurs on me during games. It was easy enough for me to laugh it off and call them a goose (among other things) because they are wrong. Not so easy for my gay brothers i'd imagine.
In saying that, statistically, 1 in 10 people are gay. The only big name Rugby player/s (of either code) to have come out are former Lions and Welsh caption Gareth Thomas, and before him Ian Roberts. That would imply there are a lot of other top flight footballers who are gay. They have not come out. Got to be a reason for that right?

Another vital point I forgot to mention, is that these teams are not just a bunch of gay/gay friendly/under-represented teams playing other gay/gay friendly/under-represented teams.
In order to be part of the controlling body - IGRAB - and therefore play for a shot at "Henry" (for you there Hugh) the Club MUST be part of and competing in their home union.
In San Francisco this meant we were required to be a part of the Northern California Rugby Union, which of course sits under the USA rugby Union.
There of course are certain requirements Clubs must adhere to in order to be part of their respective Unions - say the NSW Suburban Rugby Uinon for example.
This means that week in - week out - these teams are playing other more "traditional clubs" - which in the case of the Sydney Convicts this week - see them in the Grand Final of NSW Subbies.

The Cup is held every 2 years. Off years some regions host an in between tournament. The Euro boys have one. There is one on the East Coast of USA and one on the West Coast.
Other than that, they are playing right beside everyone else for their whole respective season.

If you are not a "real rugby" Club by doing all this, you can't play in the Cup.

 

[Karl]

I reckon the cup should be called Bing.

Then you have Bing and Bill.

 

[AlexH]

AlexH, yes, you are missing something here. As has been made perfectly clear upthread, no one at all is expecting or asking for special treatment. Can you point to where this is happening? Meanwhile, it's accepted as true that professional gay rugby players would find it very hard to come out of the closet.

Also, whenever I hear a member of a majority decry "special treatment" for a minority, I can only think of this song:

Mate, the entire tournament has been concevied to draw attention to a particular set of issues affecting a very small group of people. Can you explain to me how that is not special treatment? The fact of the matter is that publicity stunts like these simply draw attention to the fact that these people are different and only stand as an impedement to true acceptance and integration.



Probably serves me right for not reading the whole thread.

I think you might have missed the fact that the tournament is not just for gays. all are welcome to participate. The whole point of the tournament is to highlight and raise awareness in relation to inequality and discrimination in the sporting community. It's not about expecting special treatment.

I don't see it as grandstanding.

The thing about awareness campagins of this nature is that everyone is more than willing to get behind the cause at the time because they either genuinely sympathize for homosexual athletes or because it is the politically correct thing to do. However, once the tournament is over the issue slips off the collective radar of the hetrosexual majority because they do not have to deal with being discriminated against because of their sexual orientation on a day to day basis. It only becomes clear a week down the track at your local club game -- when the same guy who was buying tickets to support the cause of the "Gay Rugby World Cup" and touting its merits to anyone who would grant him an audience -- watches his mate fall off a tackle and calls him a "homo" that nothing has changed.

Its up to the rugby administrators, coaches and staff, at all levels of the game, to create an environment where players can feel comfortable no matter who they call god or what gives them a fat. It is up to them to talk about these issues with players in a very frank, no bullshit manner and try to create a culture of acceptance. It is up to them to set the standard in terms of behaviour and come down hard on players and supporters who are not willing to play ball. Awareness does not breed change, concrete policy and diligent enforcement does.

 

[BPC]

I got my teeth knockled out on the Final play of the game V's New York.

I am not sure if this is a typo or if it is intended as a combination of knuckled and knocked, that is, you had your teeth knocked out by someone knuckling you in the mouth.

Awesome post.

 

[dangerousdave]

Mate, the entire tournament has been concevied to draw attention to a particular set of issues affecting a very small group of people. Can you explain to me how that is not special treatment?

The thing about this instance is that the concerned group of individuals put in their own time and effort to organise this thing. There is no 'gay quota' for the wallabies or any other "special treatment" for gay players. Except for the negative kind which as you point out still happens from time to time.

The fact of the matter is that publicity stunts like these simply draw attention to the fact that these people are different and only stand as an impedement to true acceptance and integration.

The Bingham cup may or may not reinforce gay stereotypes but one can argue that it is a *celebration* of difference, kind of like the mardi gras. This is a good thing. In no way does it stand as an impediment to change, I can't think of a good refutation for this point but sometimes nonsense is very hard to argue with. Also, events like this and gay clubs will and should exist until such time as LBGT people are fully accepted in society so that gay players have somewhere to go play rugby where they feel accepted and valued.

The thing about awareness campagins of this nature is that everyone is more than willing to get behind the cause at the time because they either genuinely sympathize for homosexual athletes or because it is the politically correct thing to do.

Correct.

However, once the tournament is over the issue slips off the collective radar of the hetrosexual majority

Being on the radar briefly is better than not at all. Just because an issue is not in the front of peoples minds after the tournament, doesn't meand it's not in the back of their minds.

It only becomes clear a week down the track at your local club game -- when the same guy who was buying tickets to support the cause of the "Gay Rugby World Cup" and touting its merits to anyone who would grant him an audience -- watches his mate fall off a tackle and calls him a "homo" that nothing has changed.

Some people may never change but if so much as one person hesitates before using a gay slur then the impact of the BC was positive. I often see the rhetorical device you're using here "we should give up because some people won't change" but it is wrong every day of the week in every corner of the globe.

Its up to the rugby administrators, coaches and staff, at all levels of the game, to create an environment where players can feel comfortable no matter who they call god or what gives them a fat. It is up to them to talk about these issues with players in a very frank, no bullshit manner and try to create a culture of acceptance. It is up to them to set the standard in terms of behaviour and come down hard on players and supporters who are not willing to play ball. Awareness does not breed change, concrete policy and diligent enforcement does.

Correct. (but I would add players and spectators to the first sentence, i.e. everybody)