Wallabies 31 Man Squad

[lewisr]

All the players you quote were at the end of the careers.
people don't like being told their time is up.
Gits is a perfect example.
The very posters that were screaming that Gits was fucking hopeless,and had no right wearing gold,are now saying he was not treated with due respect in his final year/s.

Gits is tearing it up in Europe. To claim he was at the end of his career is narrow minded and makes no recognition of the fact that all players experience form slumps. He has recovered and had we managed him better, he would have played a major role in Wallaby success in recent times.


Braveheart81. As you pointed out to me yesterday regarding Quade's 'toxic' interview, I get the sense that you are giving Deans an overwhelming amount of leeway for comments that should not have been made.

Robbie has a history of not communicating well to the public and to try and excuse this direct attack on a player is not sticking to the concept of objectivity that you often preach here on the forum.

He is a trained professional in his field (at least we're told he his ) and should know better than to play the blame game, especially when it is evident that what he is saying is completely incorrect.

Time for some tin foil hat conspiracy theories!!

Deans and his cronies are in fact coaching geniuses, and they are intentionally making it seem as though they will play a conservative game plan to trick Gatland and the Lions. This current shenanigans are simply a facade. Deans will choose Quados in the final six, only to place him in the 10 jersey for the first test match with Lilo at inside which will shock the Lions and we will run rampant in the Brisbane test!

Ewen McKenzie and Quade are playing along and this will be the most elaborate coaching plan ever hatched in the history of Rugby Union!

Am I high? Maybe. But i thought that would be one shokingly exciting outcome haha.

 

[Richo]

I'm very much not in the pro-Deans club (is there one still?), but I do think there is often a certain kind of logic to his selections. Experience over form, direct over flashy, reliably over mercurial, loyalty, a preference for size and strength and so on. As Scott Allen did on the latest podcast, you can put on a Robbie hat and see the "sense" in some of his odder choices, but it really requires stepping into his world.

Most of us disagree with the basic premises of his approach, but once you assume them, things make a lot more sense.

 

[Braveheart81]

Braveheart81. As you pointed out to me yesterday regarding Quade's 'toxic' interview, I get the sense that you are giving Deans an overwhelming amount of leeway for comments that should not have been made.

Robbie has a history of not communicating well to the public and to try and excuse this direct attack on a player is not sticking to the concept of objectivity that you often preach here on the forum.

Like most things in life, I think the truth lies somewhere in between both extremes.

Deans should have picked his words better so that what he said couldn't possibly be construed as him blaming QC (Quade Cooper) for Tapuai's form slump. If you're talking about the form of multiple players and how one player impacts on another then I think you need to be really careful with what you say. There is a valid reason why you would talk about this though. Players in certain positions affect the form of players around them.

On the other hand, the one quote he made amongst many is not directly saying that QC (Quade Cooper) is to blame for Tapuai's form slump and is taken to mean that by people who want to paint Deans' comments as being defamatory and entirely inappropriate.

 

[RedsHappy]

I'm very much not in the pro-Deans club (is there one still?), but I do think there is often a certain kind of logic to his selections. Experience over form, direct over flashy, reliably over mercurial, loyalty, a preference for size and strength and so on. As Scott Allen did on the latest podcast, you can put on a Robbie hat and see the "sense" in some of his odder choices, but it really requires stepping into his world.

Most of us disagree with the basic premises of his approach, but once you assume them, things make a lot more sense.

You're right Richo. But do go back to these boards in about July-August 2011 pre-RWC and there was plenty of generally supportive pre-event '....I can see Deans' logic in this RWC squad, we can see what he wants to do...'. In fact, this has always been true of big pre-series moments in the Deans' period, a Unique Deans Rationality of sorts is discovered and then there is (understandably) hope that it will merit victory. I'm not attacking that, it's rugby patriotism mostly and a desire to find something positive and glimmers of optimism in a growing world of disappointment and pain.

 

[Try-ranosaurus Rex]

Am I high? Maybe

Yes..... and I want some.

 

[Ash]

I just went through the first half of the Cheetahs game and it is still pretty prevalent.

5 minutes into the game he throws a forward pass attempting to offload. This situation there was probably something on but it was a pretty low percentage pass.

28.50 in he steps through a few tackles and then just dumps the ball on the ground behind him when being tackled. This one Quirk managed to pick up cleanly but it was unnecessary.

15 seconds later Cooper has the ball again and flings a pass back when he's going into a tackle that is picked up on the bounce by Holmes well behind the advantage line.

29.45 he shovels the ball back to Holmes while being held in a tackle and it just results in the Reds breakdown being 5m back from where it could have been.

10 seconds after this he throws a flick pass to Davies who is marked with nowhere to run and he has no choice but to fling it back in.

I think this is a major weakness of his game. You look how many excellent passes he threw in the Cheetahs game and how many people he put through gaps but he keeps trying to keep the ball alive at all costs far too often. I agree that he is taking the ball into contact more often than he used to but shoveling the ball out the back when he is under pressure or being tackled still happens too
often.

Firstly, claiming that he is putting Taps under pressure by forcing passes is rubbish. You are just looking for excuses to agree with Deans, the fact that A. Finger had been betteroutside of Cooper hints that Taps really was out of form.

Secondly, not all of the cases you highlighted are him offloading in a risky manner with static support in my book.

1) 5 minutes is a forced pass that was on but poor execution. Quade takes on those plays which is why his error rate is a bit higher than other players. Player was running in support and overlap was on, so it was not static and the support player was in a much, much better position than Cooper (no defender). Myself, I'd prefer he hold that one as getting it around the players back was a little low percentage.

2) 28:50 looks like a dropped ball more than a forced offload. He was looking for an offload with support which was there, but looks like he was in two minds and lost it. Poor ball security. I would say that the Cooper pre-2013 just would've thrown it straight out, this time he stopped and considered.

3) 15 seconds later is a switch pass, not an offload. And it looks like a Cheetahs player got a hand on it. Again, no issues, not an offload.

4) 29:45 - no problem with this. Holmes is a support player who actually offloads to CFS who gets driven back. If Holmes took the ball to ground, there's no loss. Holmes was not static and was moving forward and looked like he called for the ball, Cooper was in a weak position in contact and his arm was free. Zero problem with Cooper's offload, lots of issues with Holmes who went in too high and then forced the pass to CFS. A fly half offloading to a prop in support is normally not an issue.

5) Flick pass to Davies was a bit wild, I'll give you. This one, I had no real issues with to be honest, a little better execution and it's fine. Not less than a 50/50 for someone like Cooper. The result was good and Davies was not in a worse position than Cooper when he received the ball.

What Cooper did in the Cheetahs game was more than he had done in the prior 2 to 3 games combined, sadly enough, yet in very few of them was the support static and in a worse case than Cooper. In fact, only in two was the play and support really static (2 and 5) and only in one (2) was the person in worse position that Cooper who received the ball (excluding the poor play from Holmes which made it so).

Blaming Cooper for Taps form is still a long bow that I just don't see how you can justify. I can still vividly recall Cooper putting Taps into a yearning hole with a ball into Taps' breadbasket just for Taps to drop it cold, and that's when I knew Taps was really struggling. I fail to see how Cooper is responsible there.

 

[I like to watch]

Gits is tearing it up in Europe. To claim he was at the end of his career is narrow minded and makes no recognition of the fact that all players experience form slumps. He has recovered and had we managed him better, he would have played a major role in Wallaby success in recent times.

He was 28 when he debuted in France.
Read the threads for the Wallabies at that time,for over a year he was vilified on here, for his continual "crabbing".
Many here believed Robbie gave him the benefit of the doubt for way too long.
Do you understand that french provincial rugby is a lower standard than Test Rugby?

 

[Richo]

You're right Richo. But do go back to these boards in about July-August 2011 pre-RWC and there was plenty of generally supportive pre-event '..I can see Deans' logic in this RWC squad, we can see what he wants to do.'. In fact, this has always been true of big pre-series moments in the Deans' period, a Unique Deans Rationality of sorts is discovered and then there is (understandably) hope that it will merit victory. I'm not attacking that, it's rugby patriotism mostly and a desire to find something positive and glimmers of optimism in a growing world of disappointment and pain.

I recall all those debates quite well. I also recall being shouted down for suggesting, with some such as yourself, that his pre-RWC extension was a bad idea.

But some people here seem to be suggesting that his choices are utter lunacy. That's not quite true. They're just founded on premises that most of us find foolish.

 

[RoffsChoice]

I'm very much not in the pro-Deans club (is there one still?)

There's me (maybe only me) until Jake White is done at the Brumbies.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Cummins' thoughts on being picked. He's just "keen to get out there", good attitude.

 

[Ignoto]

but I do think there is often a certain kind of logic to his selections. Experience over form, direct over flashy, reliably over mercurial, loyalty, a preference for size and strength and so on.

I would be fine with that line of thinking, had the players he's picked to do those jobs actually did those jobs.

I have great concerns over Kepu, Timani, Dennis and to a certain extent, S Finger and Palu. Then there's a concern about Deans selecting players in a position their skill set is better used in another position ala JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 where he's clearly best suited in 1 v 1 situations where his foot work and tackle busting is best used.

The style he wants to play didn't work in the world cup and you'd barely call it a success last year. We scrapped home in a number of games by a bee's dick and in some cases through individual brilliance, not through a better game plan that was executed.

 

[Richo]

Ignoto, the question of whether the best players in Australia play the way Deans wants the team to play is a good one to ask. I'd take Palu but share your concerns there.

I don't think Deans is a good test coach, nor do I particularly like his game plan or all his selections to fulfill it. All I'm saying is that there is a framework to his thinking, no matter how skewed we might perceive it to be.

 

[Braveheart81]

I find it hard to criticise the selection of Kepu. He's in the squad as the fourth choice prop and there really aren't many viable options. Palmer is injured and struggling for form and Sio and Ryan are both very green. Kepu at least has a fair bit of experience and is solid in the scrum.

Dennis is also hard to criticise. With MMM injured, Dennis is the only player who can play 6 but cover lock as well. I imagine MMM will be in the final 6 if he's fit. I see one of them as being pretty likely to be part of the team if Deans wants to play a 7 on the bench and have both Hooper and Gill on the field at the same time.

 

[Scotty]

i'll leave unacceptable alone for now, but why is it completely wrong? how is the form of the backs outside cooper (ioane aside)? are faainga, CFS, Taps (when on), and morahan lighting it up?. the only players i see lighting it up lately for the reds are ioane and davies.
i am relatively impartial either way on quade. i am not surprised he wasn't selected and i wouldn't have been surprised if he was. he is 50/50 for me and i can see the arguments either way
but i've watched his last few games and mate, he hasn't been that impressive. his self imposed error rate (forward passes, passes into touch or to know one, missed tackles) is pretty high.

i would bet that the cheetahs game sealed it. that miss tackle was woeful. and don't say he slipped. he was running one direction and slipped back on his ass which is a sign he is uncertain and not confident in contact, he got near it and went back on his heels.

if this was 2011, i'd understand the anger of his non-selection, but he is nowhere near that and for all the maturity he's shown in some aspects of his game management, he's also carved out a lot of his x factor which was what set him apart - to be clear, i think he's over compensated toning down his attack too much while not fixing the crucial issue of defense. and i think that is what deans, is in an unclear way, trying to say.

A Finger has looked good since moving to 12 and the 19 year old CFS had looked very dangerous at 13.

As to you comment about the missed tackle - he sure did stuff that up, but if you think that is indicative of his defensive work this season then you haven't been watching much.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

There's me (maybe only me) until Jake White is done at the Brumbies.

There was me: i was fine with the squad. I dont think QC (Quade Cooper) deserves to be picked.
But then he went and spoiled it all and now I have no respect for him at all

 

[BDA]

I have great concerns over Kepu, Timani, Dennis and to a certain extent, S Finger and Palu. .

I don't understand why people are underrating Timani's potential impact. He was my man of the match in the second game against the All Blacks last year. Absolutely F'd people in the A. If that doesn't prove he's up to Test level rugby I don't want what will.

 

[Ignoto]

Kepu at least has a fair bit of experience and is solid in the scrum.

Perhaps I still have Scott's review of Kepu in my head, but his technique begs a lot to be desired unless he's worked on it this year. Then for some reason I can't help but see him flopping all over the place.

Dennis is also hard to criticise. With MMM injured, Dennis is the only player who can play 6 but cover lock as well. I imagine MMM will be in the final 6 if he's fit.

But with the play style Robbie wants to follow, Dennis isn't a suitable candidate. He's a grafter without being a line bender. He would have been better off naming Auelua to meet his requirements.​

I don't understand why people are underrating Timani's potential impact. He was my man of the match in the second game against the All Blacks last year. Absolutely F'd people in the A. If that doesn't prove he's up to Test level rugby I don't want what will.

Sure Timani is a mountain of a man, but consistency and hard work has been his demise for a majority of his time in gold. There's glimpses of what we all expect and we never know which Timani will be there at game time.

​

 

[Athilnaur]

glimmers of optimism in a growing world of disappointment and pain.

 

[Braveheart81]

Perhaps I still have Scott's review of Kepu in my head, but his technique begs a lot to be desired unless he's worked on it this year. Then for some reason I can't help but see him flopping all over the place.

But with the play style Robbie wants to follow, Dennis isn't a suitable candidate. He's a grafter without being a line bender. He would have been better off naming Auelua to meet his requirements.​

​

I agree that Kepu is far from perfect but Robbo, Slipper and Alexander pick themselves and then you've got daylight next (due to Palmer's drop in form). It's more a case of looking at the lack of other options available than saying that Kepu is crap.

I think the requirement behind Dennis is to be able to play 6 and 4. I highly doubt he would have been in the initial squad if MMM had been fit. In the squad chosen, I think Dennis is the third choice 6 and fourth choice 8. He's the only potential 4/6 though. If Deans wants to play two 7s in his matchday 23 and still have 3 back reserves he has to compromise his bench by having a player who covers both lock and the backrow.

I think there is a strong chance that Gill and Hooper will both be in the 23 because Deans considers both of them to be amongst our better players (which I agree with).

 

[gel]

I don't understand why people are underrating Timani's potential impact. He was my man of the match in the second game against the All Blacks last year. Absolutely F'd people in the A. If that doesn't prove he's up to Test level rugby I don't want what will.

It was one match ONLY where he actually turned up and did what he was supposed to do (where I might add a lot of the others did not turn up).

The rest of the time he has been on holiday.