Australia vs South Africa - Brisbane 7th Sept 2013

[hughbert]

The issue that, I think, many of us have with Cooper is that his supporters have marketed him to us in a way that makes us expect more from him than "just as good as To'omua". Yeah, I kinda hope he would be as good as "2 test match" To'omua.

Cooper is consistently marketed as the do-it-all fly-half. He's supposed to have this perpetually variable and envolving game that gives the team all kinf of fancy options. In this context, To'omua is often described as "one-dimensional" (or something similar).

After Bled 2, many felt that To'omua had improved since Bled 1. I thought so, anyway. He took the line one more (something I should be limited to 2 or 3 times a match anyway) and (relatively) quickly released the ball to his 12 otherwise. When he did run the ball he crossed the advantage line. Cooper more or less stalls at first contact.

So when people say they thought QC (Quade Cooper) was average or shit, it's worth noting that they may be comparing him to the expectations created and cared for by his fan club, rather than comparing him to the other 22 blokes on the park.

Frankly if we are going to play behind a beaten pack I would rather play To'omua or Lilo at 10. If our pack is going to be dominant (LOL)...I'd probably still play To'omua or Lilo at 10.

I dont think we need the fucking wheel to be reinvented when it comes to 10 play. How many options does Morne Steyn give the boks? Two - he either gets rid of it outside quickly or he kicks. How much fancy shit does Dan Carter do "At the line"? That's right, fuck all. Carter either passes it quickly or kicks, for the most part, and occasionally (about the perfect amount of times, actually) has a crack at that inside channel as they start to get comfortable drifting.

 

[I like to watch]

Cooper was the least of the problems. People regularly say how halves look bad behind beaten packs yet when yet when it is Cooper he cops a hiding.

How about Cummins f-ups that lost ball when we were starting to build momentum? JOC (James O'Connor) looked lost and let a couple of bombs bounce, 2 poor tests in the lead up? Genia and Lilo threw intercepts and Cooper didn't? Folau gave up the ball twice in contact and Cooper did not have 1 turnover i remember?

Yeah he did,he threw a really stupid ball that SA scored from.
It's like giving start when you select him.
He is always good for one try against us.
Apart from that ball, he actually played OK.
He defended well,and given the pack was woeful,and Genia refuses to clear the ball until he is sure the defence is set.He never really got much of a chance.
Only saw the game once,but was he playing deeper than he normally does?

 

[tekay]

Last night we had the following players on the field at roughly the same time; Moore, Alexander, Sio, Fardy, Mowen and Hooper. 6 out of 8 possible forwards were Brumbies or have recently been in their "new system". This "hunger" and working as a "tight unit" was missing even when we had 3/4 of the forward pack as Brumbies.

Do we only see the true benefit of this "tight unit" when all 8 members are there an accounted for? Or is it something else?

Honestly, the blind tribal support coming out of some provincial camps is terrible. Comparing Super Rugby to an international game, especially against the top two nations in the world is miles apart. Plenty of players don't realise how much more is required at this level than what they've previously got.

There's not much cattle left for Link to choose from to be frank. There might be one or two minor improvements he could make, but nothing to make up the huge deficits that exists in the 1 - 8 position.

Now that's a fair-minded Qld reply. Good point too.

Now I'm really confused, maybe you're right - is it top line Super players being a little over-awed and tentative at Test level?

 

[Quick Hands]

Richo, it's like the old meat and gravy thing. Unfortunately many kids in the forwards get all the development opportunities (rep selection) on the basis of trial performance where they stand out by doing selfish but spectacular solo runs while seagulling out with the princesses (gravy).

It is all too easy to see the gravy stuff (especially for the fatties wearing <6) and think that they had an awesome game. The meat for the tight 5 is so often overlooked for the flashy stuff.

It's the whole way that forwards are brought up in this country. On our largely hard, fast grounds, junior coaches tend to pick the athletic kids who can get around. Very little mauling goes on and you have the prohibition on 2nd rowers crotch binding, which is unique to Australia in U/19 laws and provides a completely different dynamic to the binding process and mechanics of the scrum.

As a further illustration of the point, today I watched the Eastwood v Manly semi final on ABC. After the match the Eastwood 7 Roach was interviewed and said that he was a hooker and hoped to be back playing hooker next season. And we wonder why we can't scrum.

 

[Ruggo]

Hey I only ever respond in a liked-minded tone you Reds loving Gorilla. And I'm sooo sorry for picking on your overrated QLD buddy. Why are Queenslanders so often parochial flag waving types?.sigh.

Try asking a Queenslander. I'm not from Queensland mate.

 

[tekay]

Try asking a Queenslander. I'm not from Queensland mate.

Well maybe it's the over-zealous tone of SOME reds fans then.

 

[louie]

great attitude.

same players mate, same players

 

[TSR]

It's bemusing what catches people's attention. Slipper got votes from a number of people in the MOM thread. How the hell that happens after our pack got obliterated and our scrum destroyed I cannot quite understand. Ending up in the middle of a few back line plays doesn't mean much, IMO.

It's a hard one Richo. I was one of those people. In fact I gave him 3 I think. And I think I gave him points in one of the previous tests as well after much deliberation about the scrum.

I guess you could look at some of my other comments today and assume my priorities are wrong when it comes to selecting front rowers, but I would say that as a front rower myself and a coach I absolutely place value in a solid set piece.

My rational is as follows -
1. I thought the problems at scrum related more to the tighthead side, and also the back 5. Not saying Slipper was great - he sure wasn't dominant, but he didn't get any help.
2. I thought he was one of the only forwards who actually tried to take the Boks on at the breakdown
3. Quite simply - who else do you pick. I almost didnt vote. My other votes went to Lilo & JOC (James O'Connor), but I must admit I'm not convinced on those. I note tardy got some votes, but I thought he was no better than fair. Same with Folau. If anyone else put in a performance which commanded points I missed it.

 

[Sidbarret]

It's the whole way that forwards are brought up in this country. On our largely hard, fast grounds, junior coaches tend to pick the athletic kids who can get around. Very little mauling goes on and you have the prohibition on 2nd rowers crotch binding, which is unique to Australia in U/19 laws and provides a completely different dynamic to the binding process and mechanics of the scrum.

As a further illustration of the point, today I watched the Eastwood v Manly semi final on ABC. After the match the Eastwood 7 Roach was interviewed and said that he was a hooker and hoped to be back playing hooker next season. And we wonder why we can't scrum.

What possible reason can there be for this?

 

[Tordah]

Secondly it was no more dangerous than the immediately following no arms, no ball shoulder from the Bok 5.
I would have yellowed both if I was on a mission to get dangerous tackles out of the game.

are you saying you would yellow Flip van der Merwe for standing while AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) ran into him and took a dive? I see how the Hooper YC was kind of harsh (though he did lift him beyond horizontal - barely), but the penalty against FvdM was just bull IMO

 

[hughbert]

You're going to get a yellow if a player goes beyond the horizontal. If it's clear on the video, you're going to get a yellow. It isn't difficult to avoid and it's been this way for some years now.

Both the hooper yellow and the bok penalty were fair, IMO. As was the yellow for deliberate knock down.

In fact I thought Clancy had an excellent game.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

are you saying you would yellow Flip van der Merwe for standing while AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) ran into him and took a dive? I see how the Hooper YC was kind of harsh (though he did lift him beyond horizontal - barely), but the penalty against FvdM was just bull IMO

No.
He moved.

 

[Sidbarret]

I never said it was simple, I was just putting it in simple terms as I don't have 10 pages to write an essay on rugby.

If you can't secure quality possession from your own scrums and lineouts the rest is irrelevent, we'll always be chasing our tails as we are now. In the short term, we may have to live with picking some tight forwards who aren't as good around the field to win the ball. It's a choice. For some time we've taken the pick the players who can contribute around the field option and it's been a spectacular failure. Maybe it's time to take the other choice?

EDIT: The Boks seem to go ok with taking the other choice.

That's a bit of fallacy, perpetuated often by SA fans as well.

Etzebeth, Beast, Bismarck, Strauss and Kruger are very mobile tight forwards. Even in the loose-trio things are not as bad as people claim. We might lack a Hooper-paced loosie, but Vermeulen and Louw get around brilliantly (better to run to right place on the pitch than trying to be everywhere). Alberts might be a little slower than most international, but gives up nothing to the likes of Fardy, etc.

 

[Richo]

It's a hard one Richo. I was one of those people. In fact I gave him 3 I think. And I think I gave him points in one of the previous tests as well after much deliberation about the scrum.

I guess you could look at some of my other comments today and assume my priorities are wrong when it comes to selecting front rowers, but I would say that as a front rower myself and a coach I absolutely place value in a solid set piece.

My rational is as follows -
1. I thought the problems at scrum related more to the tighthead side, and also the back 5. Not saying Slipper was great - he sure wasn't dominant, but he didn't get any help.
2. I thought he was one of the only forwards who actually tried to take the Boks on at the breakdown
3. Quite simply - who else do you pick. I almost didnt vote. My other votes went to Lilo & JOC (James O'Connor), but I must admit I'm not convinced on those. I note tardy got some votes, but I thought he was no better than fair. Same with Folau. If anyone else put in a performance which commanded points I missed it.

Fair enough, TSR.

I picked on Slipper because he's sighted in the backs a bit. I actually agree with you that he had a decent game. My issue is more with the broader emphasis on balancing set piece deficiencies with around the park work. Slipper, at least, seems to do a better job at set piece. Benny A is the archetype of the "balance" approach. Look where that's gotten us!

 

[Sidbarret]

No.
He moved.

A lot less than Hooper blocking De Villiers chase in the 16th minute when De Villiers got done for shoving him out of the way.

 

[Ruggo]

Well maybe it's the over-zealous tone of SOME reds fans then.

That's fair. All provinces have them.

How I see it is the Wallabies problem is in the forwards. The Brumbies have something to offer here. The way their pack is coached. Lord Laurie has done a fine job on the finer details. The Brumbies had a truly skillful pack with attention to technique. I think blind Freddy could spot that. The Wallabies need that without doubt. Your backs had a good year off the back of it.

One major problem I see in the Wallaby pack is balance. Missing Pocock and Higgers is really highlighting this issue in my view.

I don't think the Cooper bashing is just. It ignores the truth in what I have said in the above paragraph. If the Wallaby pack under performs behind a solid, competitive pack, then talk of changes. Cooper has his faults but also has his qualities. I rate To'omua but I think it not wise to build up an inexperienced player with preconceived expectation. Does To'omua have the ingredients? Most certainly, but can he bake the cake? Let's weight and see. The other consideration with To'omua on the bench is versatility. He can cover 10, 12 and 15 which is valuable to any side. I also would like to see a Cooper Lilo combination given more time. I think it offers lots potentially.

After the RC I think we will see significant changes in the Wallaby coaching setup. The time frame between Link being appointed and the first Bled was too short to implement them. Blades should be the first to go in my view.

 

[Slim 293]

Cooper was the least of the problems. People regularly say how halves look bad behind beaten packs yet when yet when it is Cooper he cops a hiding.

How about Cummins f-ups that lost ball when we were starting to build momentum? JOC (James O'Connor) looked lost and let a couple of bombs bounce, 2 poor tests in the lead up? Genia and Lilo threw intercepts and Cooper didn't? Folau gave up the ball twice in contact and Cooper did not have 1 turnover i remember?

Just to be pedantic........

It was a Cooper turnover that directly led to one of the Bok tries........

 

[hughbert]

Just to be pedantic....

It was a Cooper turnover that directly led to one of the Bok tries....

that he "remembers"

they block out the fuck ups

 

[Ruggo]

That's a bit of fallacy, perpetuated often by SA fans as well.

Etzebeth, Beast, Bismarck, Strauss and Kruger are very mobile tight forwards. Even in the loose-trio things are not as bad as people claim. We might lack a Hooper-paced loosie, but Vermeulen and Louw get around brilliantly (better to run to right place on the pitch than trying to be everywhere). Alberts might be a little slower than most international, but gives up nothing to the likes of Fardy, etc.

A big lesson about last night is the team dynamic. When you have somebody like Bizmark, you can field the big back row. The lesson is more about the role being performed rather than the number on the jersey.

Etzebeth is really agile for a big bloke. In that sense he reminds me of James Horwill. Although he didn't make the Bokke, De Jarger also has the same attributes.

 

[RedsHappy]

Just a minor aside:

Something must be done via Qld Stadiums to deal with the obvious seriously poor playing surface now in place at Suncorp.

It was bad enough during the BIL series when the rainy June here was a vaguely plausible excuse. But then and now - and after a hot, dry August - the surface still looks badly mottled with uneven grass coverage and the grass and top soil is breaking up far too easily, witness the many slippages and awful mess the surface becomes after just a typical scrum. Contrast this, for example, with typical NZ stable and solid fields where there's less sun, less heat, and more rain. You can see the positive difference immediately.

I suspect the post 2011 flood major resurfacing done at Suncorp wasn't done well at a technical design or execution level. With such a superb viewing and well-positioned stadium, the latest Suncorp surface is far from living up to the stadium's justifiably high reputation.


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