Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[barbarian]

FYI I am merging this with the '5 year plan' thread as I think the subject matter is very similar.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Participation is obviously very important, and needs to be fostered.

But it’s interesting to look at what Cricket Australia is doing here. Whilst very different to rugby, their game is absolutely dying at a Senior participation level. People just don’t have the time to commit to a full season of 6-8 hour matches on weekends.

And yet with 20/20 they have found a new market, both in participation and at the top level. The Big Bash has changed the game, and interest in cricket is as healthy as it has ever been.

At a participation level the game is moving away from long-form Saturdays on turf pitches in whites (though that will always exist), and we are seeing big growth in midweek and weekend T20 matches. Some of these are 8-a-side, with an emphasis on speed and enjoyment rather than what you would call ‘pure’ cricket.

Now there are so many differences between cricket and rugby, so we can’t say this is how we will end up. But you can see cricket’s imprint on what the ARU are trying to do here, especially with 7s and Viva 7s.


And it also shows a game can survive, and even thrive, with reduced participation. Again we should be encouraging participation and helping it grow (as CA are doing too), but try to build up another route to the game that doesn’t involve slogging it out on a Saturday morning.
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Very true. It's why I'm supportive of the idea of pushing both Viva 7s and Sevens at the community game level. I like 7s as a spring/summer based sports as it allows for short but enjoyable seasons of say 8 weeks.

It also offers accessibility for children. I'd like to see the ARU use a transitionary model in schools using both Viva and 7s as its backbone. Use Viva as the introductory vessel at the infancy levels (K-3) and 7s as the vessel from 4-6. From there embed 7s as a summer sports throughout HS with fortnightly mini tournaments while using 10s as the transitionary vehicle in years 7 & 8. In years 9 and 10 it becomes 12 a side and 11 and 12 the full compliment. Similar could be done in clubland as well.

 

[RugbyReg]

My boys go to what has traditionally been seen as a "rugby nursery school" in Sydneys East, with quite a few Wallabies in the old boys.
The AFL has approached the school to take the boys for their PE classes once a week for 5 weeks, all expenses paid, which the school accepted with open arms (why wouldn't they?).
At the end of the 5 weeks the kids came home with a Sherrin and a years kids membership to the Swans, giving them free kids tickets to games for 2016.
I couldn't get that stuff out on my house fast enough.
Now that's a 5 year plan!

Devil's advocate time.. though..is it?

Where's the connection to the clubs? I've heard repeatedly from various sources that the huge AFL participation numbers are largely driven by Auskick which is a participation program that doesn't link to a club. Some may be held at a club, but does it actually drive club registration? And who runs these programs? Aren't they mostly dad/mum driven with a few drills provided. Similar to the old Milo In2 Cricket. I'd be very interested to know what the actual AFL registered club numbers and suspect we'd hear a pretty similar tale to the one Hugh told us about cricket.

Now the school program you hold up is purely about participation numbers. Were your kids given any link to a local club to play for? Was there anyone from a local club involved?

In the end the AFL is all about participation numbers in the broadest sense of the word, which other sports are trying to do as well. AFL then funnels them all through to their elite game - AFL (as above). They have a funnel but we don't - Rugby has a bloody colander! Wallabies, Super Rugby, 7s, NRC, club, the Viva 7s.

So the ARU are trying to replicate the AFL, which is to be commended. It's just got to be acknowledged that the outcomes (both desired and actual) may be different.

 

[Braveheart81]

It's worth noting that AFL have also added a non-contact mixed version for adults in recent years. AFL Recreational Football is the game. It's not too bad. I played it for a couple of years.

 

[barbarian]

It's worth noting that AFL have also added a non-contact mixed version for adults in recent years. AFL Recreational Football is the game. It's not too bad. I played it for a couple of years.

Yeah AFL 9s is growing rapidly, they are having a national champs for the first time this year.
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[qwerty51]

What's difference? Didn't know AFL had contact already..

 

[Braveheart81]

Yeah AFL 9s is growing rapidly, they are having a national champs for the first time this year.
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I went to the round 1 Swans match against Collingwood and noticed that it was what they had at half time rather than the little kids running around playing Auskick.

There is very clearly a move to weeknight mixed social sport and rugby needs to be a part of that.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I went to the round 1 Swans match against Collingwood and noticed that it was what they had at half time rather than the little kids running around playing Auskick.

There is very clearly a move to weeknight mixed social sport and rugby needs to be a part of that.

That's why they need to start pushing Viva 7s a lot more aggressively.

 

[Braveheart81]

That's why they need to start pushing Viva 7s a lot more aggressively.

I agree.

Everyone moans and groans about participation numbers being boosted by these sort of things and primary school days where people pass a football once etc. but the reality is that every sport does it and it has an impact on terms of government investment etc. and ability to attract sponsors.

Clearly people playing XV a side rugby is the best participation we can possibly have but the reality is that those numbers are going to continue to drop because there is a widespread trend away from this level of participation across all sports (particularly for adult men) and the gaps need to be filled elsewhere.

 

[papabear]

I went to the round 1 Swans match against Collingwood and noticed that it was what they had at half time rather than the little kids running around playing Auskick.

There is very clearly a move to weeknight mixed social sport and rugby needs to be a part of that.

Are you malcolm turnbull?

 

[Braveheart81]

Are you malcolm turnbull?

What a travesty that I went to an AFL game on a night the Tahs weren't playing!

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I agree.

Everyone moans and groans about participation numbers being boosted by these sort of things and primary school days where people pass a football once etc. but the reality is that every sport does it and it has an impact on terms of government investment etc. and ability to attract sponsors.

Clearly people playing XV a side rugby is the best participation we can possibly have but the reality is that those numbers are going to continue to drop because there is a widespread trend away from this level of participation across all sports (particularly for adult men) and the gaps need to be filled elsewhere.

That's another reason why the move toward 7s is a smart as well. It's essentially the perfect contemporary participation sport across a number of different levels. Essentially a sport for the 21st century (with the irony of having been invented in the 19th century). It also has proven to be a driver toward greater general participation overall.
With both Viva and 7s you can effectively play two games in an hour long period once or twice a week.

I really don't care about people griping about what format someone particpates in as long as they are actually playing Rugby be it Viva, 7s, 10s or 15s. If they are competing in an organised structure be it social or competitive its a win for the game.

 

[7083]

When I was at school MANY moons ago we played rugby every Wednesday through winter. Now schools only play sport at "gala days". I'm not talking about the leather elbow patch boys, I'm talking a public school in South East Sydney that produced many a Wallaby including a captain.
Why do schools no longer compete weekly during school hours? Also the Waratah Shield was held in high regard. Even just playing in a preliminary Shield game was something special let alone a final! Now it'd like pulling teeth just to get a school to enter it.
If anyone wants to look at why rugby is going backwards look now further than Pulver and the ARU!

 

[Braveheart81]

When I was at school MANY moons ago we played rugby every Wednesday through winter. Now schools only play sport at "gala days". I'm not talking about the leather elbow patch boys, I'm talking a public school in South East Sydney that produced many a Wallaby including a captain.
Why do schools no longer compete weekly during school hours? Also the Waratah Shield was held in high regard. Even just playing in a preliminary Shield game was something special let alone a final! Now it'd like pulling teeth just to get a school to enter it.
If anyone wants to look at why rugby is going backwards look now further than Pulver and the ARU!

Are these schools still participating in regular interschool competitions in other sports?

I don't think the trends are confined to rugby and I think there is a clear effort now to help reverse the regression that has been happening for a long time with the implementation of an actual plan.

You seem to point a lot of anger at Bill Pulver and the ARU currently about programs that just didn't exist a few years ago.

 

[Quick Hands]

Are these schools still participating in regular interschool competitions in other sports?

I don't think the trends are confined to rugby and I think there is a clear effort now to help reverse the regression that has been happening for a long time with the implementation of an actual plan.

You seem to point a lot of anger at Bill Pulver and the ARU currently about programs that just didn't exist a few years ago.

Wednesday afternoon rugby competitions in the CHS system have almost disappeared - replaced in this area by soccer and rugby league. Same goes for Friday afternoon PSSA primary sport - rugby has long gone, but league and soccer still go on every Friday.

I like the idea of reversing this, but I think that Bill underestimates the magnitude of the task ahead. League only got in (around here anyway) because rugby fell over and it was the logical replacement.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Wednesday afternoon rugby competitions in the CHS system have almost disappeared - replaced in this area by soccer and rugby league. Same goes for Friday afternoon PSSA primary sport - rugby has long gone, but league and soccer still go on every Friday.

I like the idea of reversing this, but I think that Bill underestimates the magnitude of the task ahead. League only got in (around here anyway) because rugby fell over and it was the logical replacement.

Why (and when) did Rugby fall over?

 

[Quick Hands]

I agree.

Everyone moans and groans about participation numbers being boosted by these sort of things and primary school days where people pass a football once etc. but the reality is that every sport does it and it has an impact on terms of government investment etc. and ability to attract sponsors.

Clearly people playing XV a side rugby is the best participation we can possibly have but the reality is that those numbers are going to continue to drop because there is a widespread trend away from this level of participation across all sports (particularly for adult men) and the gaps need to be filled elsewhere.

I don't have a particular problem with boosting overall participation numbers using these means - as you say all sports do it.

The problem that I do have, however, is where these numbers are used to mask real problems - as has been done in the past.

Participation needs to be broken down into categories which provide a true picture of strengths and weaknesses.

There's nothing wrong with running 7s programmes in as many schools as we like and counting the numbers - but we need to be honest with ourselves as to how we use those numbers. There needs to be a connection with local clubs for players to go afterwards - even to the extent of the DO going to the club training sessions and arranging to meet prospective players there.

We do need to boost 15 a side teams - it's the game that pays the bills via the Wallabies. It logically follows that if the 15 man game is allowed to whither at school and junior level, then there will be fewer prospective super players and Wallabies down the track. That can't be good for the Wallabies, which by all logic means, that it can't be good for rugby in Australia.

 

[Quick Hands]

Why (and when) did Rugby fall over?

I can only speak of this area. PSSA rugby competition stopped as far as I can tell in the 90s. I'm not sure why, I do know that it was replaced by league, despite the fact that there are 4 junior rugby clubs in our PSSA zone and 1 junior league club.

CHS North Shore zone rugby competition ceased late 90s/early 00s. Availablity of coaches was a reason that I was told. Not sure if there were other reasons.

What I could say is that had rugby had the sort of programmes in that are now being talked about, then it's highly likely that neither would have fallen over. And I'm fairly confident is saying that getting them going again will take much more time, money and resources than trying to keep them going would have.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I can only speak of this area. PSSA rugby competition stopped as far as I can tell in the 90s. I'm not sure why, I do know that it was replaced by league, despite the fact that there are 4 junior rugby clubs in our PSSA zone and 1 junior league club.

CHS North Shore zone rugby competition ceased late 90s/early 00s. Availablity of coaches was a reason that I was told. Not sure if there were other reasons.

What I could say is that had rugby had the sort of programmes in that are now being talked about, then it's highly likely that neither would have fallen over. And I'm fairly confident is saying that getting them going again will take much more time, money and resources than trying to keep them going would have.

Would recruitment/scholarships have been given by the private schools then?

That's about the time the arms race really got started with the GPS schools in Brisbane

 

[Quick Hands]

Would recruitment/scholarships have been given by the private schools then?

That's about the time the arms race really got started with the GPS schools in Brisbane

I don't think that private school scholarships would have made much of an impact. I tend to accept the explanation that the teachers who had been running the sport had either been promoted or retired and there weren't enough left to coach.

I certainly know that Manly West had a longserving teacher who coached their rugby team for years. Even after the PSSA competition folded he won a couple of state knock outs and was a regular finalist/semi-finalist. Once he was promoted to a Principal position elsewhere not much rugby-wise has gone on there.

It's where a programme like the one planned now could have helped.