France v Australia, Saturday 19 November

[Brumby Runner]

I'm not too nervous about the side's attacking capabilities. Genia and Cooper to lead the team around the ground, and with a couple of big, straight running centres and a bit of speed on the wing and at the back, I think they'll go ok with the ball. And the backrow of Fardy, Poey and McMahon should ensure a few turnovers to go along with hopefully a good set piece.

It is in defense that I have some worries. Players like Godwin, Kuridrani, Naivalu and Speight are good to excellent defenders but I wonder if they will have their structures right to allow them to gel as a unit.

Competing in the air could be another weak point. Without Folau and DHP, we could be vulnerable to the high ball, but hopefully both Will and Quade will help out.

 

[Brumby Runner]

TWAS, "the flower mafia" - I like it. Notable that some have been uncharacteristically silent for a couple of weeks. Expect them to reappear with a vengeance if (when) the French towel us up on Saturday, especially if Poey and Cooper have marginal games.

 

[Micheal]

Unsurprising the flower mafia on this site can see absolutely zero wrong with Cheika's selections.

He could shoot somebody point blank in Pitt Street Mall and the same people would be digging up dirt on the victim trying to say it was justified.

To be fair TWAS, you seem like the type of bloke who'd be grumpy at his own wedding. Some of us just like to see things in a better way - your perspective is ultimately just a choice.

I like the team because it'll be interesting. Simple as that. Not because it's the best side we've got, or because all the selections necessarily make sense given Micheal's precious own little perspective that the coach absolutely must cater to. Nup. I don't agree with half the selections.

BUT it'll be interesting to see what some of these hungry fringe players / players who have fallen out of the 23 can offer. Rugby is just a game at the end of the day. Win, loss or draw I think watching this team could be entertaining. How will they go? Who will stake a claim? With all that backline fire power will we tear the French apart? Etc

At the end of the day it's literally just entertainment. Let's not forget that.

 

[Scotty]

Cheika is damned when he does and damned when he doesn't.

"If" Cheika rotated more in the early tests there would have been complaints about his continual tinkering stopping the team developing cohesion.

"If" Cheika makes too many changes, he is devaluing the jersey

Cheika could be shitting golden eggs and there would be complaints that they aren't big enough

Do you agree with this selection?

In my experience mass changes barely ever work but making small ones can help the players coming into the side really up their game quickly and gel with the side.

 

[galumay]

I know its the place of couch coaches to come up with the team that they know would win the game, and ridicule the selections of the professional management and coaching staff, but Cheika has played into their hands with so many changes!!

On a more serious note, at least we really have no idea at all of how this will unwind - we havent seen this Wallaby team play together and we never know which French team will run out onto the field - so absolutely any result is possible and by extension the couch coaches should be able to justify their positions regardless!

Lets just hope for good weather and a fast and flowing game of rugby to enteretain us on Sunday morning!

 

[chasmac]

I'm not impressed with this team. There is too much downside in the event of a flogging.
Finally there is a game televised and we pick a scratch team. I'm predicting a scrappy loss by 12.

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[Strewthcobber]

The French have picked a pretty huge pack, lots of big lumps in the back row. However, the team is possibly even more inexperienced than the Australian side. Doussain playing 10 for the first time.

Hopefully, the Aussies have all managed to introduce themselves to their team mates over the last few days

 

[fatprop]

Do you agree with this selection?

In my experience mass changes barely ever work but making small ones can help the players coming into the side really up their game quickly and gel with the side.

I think it depends if it works, my point was whatever he does some are going to say it wrong/ill-considered etc etc

Do you agree with this selection?

I have few concerns, less about wholesale changes; they have been together training for weeks, being mixed etc.

To me there are few duds in the team who I just don't rate, but highlighting them too often creates a flame war so I will remain silent on specifics.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I absolutely agree that some rotation is wise.

Moore, Hooper and Folau have all played 27 matches so far to my knowledge. Perhaps even resting all 3 in the same match may be the right option.

DHP too. But then rotating him the same test as the fullback he has started with all year seems excessive.

Why does Arnold need to be rotated? He has started a total of 6 tests this season since June and played 8 in total. He's tracking at a maximum of 25 games including NRC so far.

That's without considering he has only started 22 max and averaged 50 mins per game in Super Rugby.

He doesn't need to be rotated.

Likewise Lopeti Timani. Though in that case it may well be Cheika going back to his first choice in McMahon.

Hodge though is in the same boat as Arnold also.

Kepu hasn't had a huge workload, not even starting every test and missing a lot of the French season due to injury. Likewise Sio only started 13 Super Rugby games and hasn't played every test.

Surely rotating both of these players when the starting hooker is also rested is overkill.

 

[PeterK]

TWAS, "the flower mafia" - I like it. Notable that some have been uncharacteristically silent for a couple of weeks. Expect them to reappear with a vengeance if (when) the French towel us up on Saturday, especially if Poey and Cooper have marginal games.

Fair go.

I am not part of the flower mafia and have wanted Cooper starting and Hooper on the bench.

However it has to be recognised there are a lot of anti tah people there who want most of the tah players out.

They have their wish. So if the replacements play poorly or not as well the incumbents they surely should own that and say the tah players deserev their spots.

 

[Tomikin]

Im excited too see the SBS coverage. And the boys spank some Frogs. Interesting team. But littered with class. The backrow is pretty friggen good

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[RugbyReg]

RR, I don't see this as the B side at all. If the French are offended at this side then they are underestimating them.

How is it not? 11 new players from the last test including three run on debuts? It's no where near out best team despite being full of very good players. But it's not our 'A' team so it must be our next team.

 

[PeterK]

I absolutely agree that some rotation is wise.

Moore, Hooper and Folau have all played 27 matches so far to my knowledge. Perhaps even resting all 3 in the same match may be the right option.

DHP too. But then rotating him the same test as the fullback he has started with all year seems excessive.

Why does Arnold need to be rotated? He has started a total of 6 tests this season since June and played 8 in total. He's tracking at a maximum of 25 games including NRC so far.

That's without considering he has only started 22 max and averaged 50 mins per game in Super Rugby.

He doesn't need to be rotated.

Likewise Lopeti Timani. Though in that case it may well be Cheika going back to his first choice in McMahon.

Hodge though is in the same boat as Arnold also.

Kepu hasn't had a huge workload, not even starting every test and missing a lot of the French season due to injury. Likewise Sio only started 13 Super Rugby games and hasn't played every test.

Surely rotating both of these players when the starting hooker is also rested is overkill.

Totally agree.

Only players who are out of form or played too much should be rotated.

There is no case for Sio, Kepu, Arnold, Timani to be rested. McMahon may have been the preferred option but Timani has played a lot better starting at 8 than McMahon ever has.

Hodge needs more time at 12 to form a combination with TK. He has played all of 2 games there. Why can't QC (Quade Cooper) have some time with Hodge at 12?

The selected team is too light on experience. Too many plays their first starts, 5 of them.
Latu, Ala'alatoa, Godwin, Naivalu, Morohan.

There is no established combination in the front row which adds more pressure in how inexperienced it is.

There is no combination between 10 and 12 or 12 and 13.

The back 3 will be bombarded and have only 1 kicker and it is also very light on experience and no combinations.

QC (Quade Cooper) dropping back to help won't solve the issue.

Is QC (Quade Cooper) the goal kicker? Does Godwin kick goals, does Morohan?

Anyway the tah haters have their wish only 1 starting tah player.

 

[RugbyReg]

Cheika is damned when he does and damned when he doesn't.

"If" Cheika rotated more in the early tests there would have been complaints about his continual tinkering stopping the team developing cohesion.

"If" Cheika makes too many changes, he is devaluing the jersey

Cheika could be shitting golden eggs and there would be complaints that they aren't big enough

You can't generalise like this. Some people have supported the selections and others haven't. People have different perspectives - you can't expect everyone to support every call. Of course there will be variances. It's not just a Cheika thing. It's anyone who makes any public decision. Not point making it a "poor victimised Cheika" thing.

I'm point blank against mass team rotation PARTICULARLY against a team like France. Always have been. Always will be.

 

[Train Without a Station]

PeterK just to clarify.

I don't mean anybody that dares follow the Waratahs.

I'm sure in theory it's perfectly possible to be a reasonable person and a Waratahs supporter........ I'm just yet to see it........

No but seriously I mean the portion of fans that cannot see any fault in anything from Cheika or anything NSW related ever. The same type of people that genuinely believed that Robertson was the best uncapped prop in Australia this year and wanted to say how well he scrummaged at the time despite Australia not actually winning a single scrum with him in his first 2/3 tests. I.e. Those that cannot see this as a "B" team despite 11 changes and only 2 first choice current starters being retained (Kuridrani does not count as he is no longer first choice. He's an injury replacement for Kerevi).

 

[barbarian]

I'm in favour of rotation, though I agree with others that there are 2-3 more changes than I'm comfortable with.

Clearly Cheika believes we can't play at our best for five straight weeks. That's probably true, but I can't see why Timani, Hodge and Arnold need a rest.

I think rotating out Sio, Moore, Kepu, Hooper, Foley, DHP and Folau is sensible enough. England is the Grand Final here and we need those guys to be as fresh as possible. But the others....... I don't know.

As FP said, the proof will be in the pudding. If we win he's a genius, if it's a narrow loss I can cope, if it's a big one then it might get ugly.
.

 

[KOB1987]

How is it not? 11 new players from the last test including three run on debuts? It's no where near out best team despite being full of very good players. But it's not our 'A' team so it must be our next team.

Yeah OK, I was generally just meaning that the standard of players within the side is not blanket B graders and I always refer to the 23, not the 15. It's not what is regarded as our A team, I will agree with that.

But just to put a different spin on it - of the 23 players named (OK 24), 12 of them were in the 23 for the RWC final last year. Of the remaining 11 players from that final 8 of them weren't considered for selection (injured, dropped, or O/S). 3 key players are being rested completely - Hooper, Folau, Kepu.

It's still a rebuilding year and this is the game to give the alternative selections a run to show what they can do, given that the primary focus is the Grand Slam. It shouldn't be forgotten that the 'A team' nearly got beaten by Scotland last week either.

I'd be curious to know what the naysayers think Cheika should have done - rotate a few players each game? Which game(s) would you choose to blood a player like Godwin?

Again, I'll reiterate, my support lies with the Wallabies. I have lived in NSW all my life so of course I follow the Tahs, I don't see any issue with that. But I couldn't give a fuck what state any player comes from when they are picked, as long as it's entertaining and we win the games we should then I don't have any reason to criticise the selections. When we lose the game we shouldn't then I'm critical, but I'll want to see it first.

 

[Pfitzy]

Clearly Cheika believes we can't play at our best for five straight weeks. That's probably true, but I can't see why Timani, Hodge and Arnold need a rest.
.

Working backwards through your list:

Arnold needs a rest because now we have no Coleman. Therefore we need to audition someone to mongrel the fuck up against France in order to join Arnold in the second row.

Hodge is a rookie and while he can probably stay fresh with relative ease, his partnership with Foley is only developing one step at a time. Godwin gets his debut, which has been long called-for here and in other parts. He has experience in Quade and Genia to help guide him.

Timani is not so much being rested, as McMahon is being brought back IMHO. He gets his shot to rip in and either take the starting spot, or get the bench spot covering all three back row positions.

 

[KOB1987]

This is the second time in a few months Cheika has devalued the jersey. Taking a bloke on tour who hasn't played professional rugby and now this team. Even more ridiculous is picking the bloke that should have been on tour and training with the team the whole time but missed out to a league player straight into the starting line up!

See this is just making a negative out of a positive purely in the interest of anti-Cheikaism.

I'll give you a different point of view - Cheika wasn't convinced enough of Morahan to pick him in the squad initially, but was interested in him enough to get Deans to pick him in the BaaBaas so he could get a look at him against the Boks and Fiji knowing that he could then bring him into the squad once those games were over. He liked what he saw so he's now picked him and he'll probably stay with the squad for the rest of the tour.

Koroibete on the other hand wasn't Union-ready enough to play for the BaaBaas but Cheika wants to develop him so he picked him in the touring squad, probably in no-one's place despite your insistence that he took Morohan's, so he could work on him that way and select him when he thinks he his ready. He's not ready so he hasn't picked him.

No problems, and no jersey 'devalued'.

 

[Train Without a Station]

KOB how is it "not blanket B graders" excluding Pocock and Genia?

Who is a B Grader in your mind then? Guys that can't crack Super Rugby?

Without injury some starters would not even be in the squad at all (e.g. Latu, Morahan, Godwin).