France v Australia, Saturday 19 November

[RugbyReg]

People saying Morahan earned his position because of his barbarian form. Didn't he start from the bench in 2 games and was only in the staring team v the Czechs?


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[barbarian]

Here is a question:

If the Kangaroos picked a union player who has never played professional league to tour with them - what do you think the reaction would be? If they changed 10 players between playing NZ and England what would the reaction be?

You could also ask similar questions based on the Australian cricket team - picking guys from club cricket or making 8 or so changes to a winning team!

What would we say about that?

These aren't great comparisons though, surely you see that.

No-one gives a rat's about International Rugby League. The Kangaroos picked Semi Radradra, a genuine Fijian this year and no-one cared at all.

And cricket is a completely different game, with different physical demands. And even taking that into account we have still 'rotated' our fast bowlers quite extensively to deal with workload.

I'm not trying to say Cheika is above criticism here, just that other code comparisons don't really work.
.

 

[I like to watch]

You're the one leaving out Kuridrani, Speight, Simmons and Cooper so I could contend that it's you who is bending the logic to support your argument.

With the RWC players yes I said 'starters' but I meant they were in the 23. Of those 9 players the only one who hasn't been a first choice in the 23 recently is Douglas, most think he has been carrying an injury and now that Coleman's out he's in the running to be first choice for the remaining tests. You could argue Fardy as well but most on here would have him ahead of Mumm.

I call bullshit.
Quade is in the 23 every game,but is on the field less than the team doctor.
He got a start in a test earlier this year,but he wasn't first choice,he was the last option.

 

[KOB1987]

I call bullshit.
Quade is in the 23 every game,but is on the field less than the team doctor.
He got a start in a test earlier this year,but he wasn't first choice,he was the last option.

You mean those 3 tests he started at 10 when Foley was 12? I don't doubt he hasn't got enough time of late but he's in the 23 every week. Being the second choice doesn't make him a B grader.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Yes Kob.

I'm leaving out the players that are not first choice starters.

If you get enough injuries players who won't make the squad normally will find their way into the team. On your logic there can be multiple first choice starters in the same position.

There cannot. There can only be 15.

Some may be borderline so the replacement is not really a risk.

Injuries will then force players who are not first choice starters to be selected. E.g. Kuridrani. Should this be compounded further by opting to select a number of 2nd choice options?

Some rotation is required for some players.

I'm not sure how you can change 11 starters and say you aren't basically putting out a B team.

 

[Scotty]

Obviously you are wrong.

The FACT is Koroibete has NOT been selected, so no he was not promised a selection at all.

That is a fact he has not been selected no matter what spin you put on it.
Cheika has always maintained that he would be looked at in the midweek Baabaas game.

He specifically mentioned Morahan as being unlucky in missing original squad selection. Now he did see him involved in 2 games and selected him.
These 2 are facts as well.

I believe it is a clear fact that he has been selected for the squad despite having no super rugby form the deserve it.

 

[Scotty]

Shit yeah! Imagine two key injuries late against Ireland and none of the backups have no game time

So explain why when we were 15 up vs Wales or 15 down vs the ABs he didn't bring Cooper on or switch DHP to fullback.

Not a good argument Nick.

 

[KOB1987]

By your reckoning then Hodge is also a B grader. You could argue that Godwin is actually the A grader considering he played the whole season at 12 and is the only genuine 12 in the squad whereas Hodge played as much at both 13 and 15 as he did at 12. I'm not saying I'd buy that, but you could argue it.

So what is a B grader? I'd qualify it as a debutante or lowly capped player, or a former test player who hasn't been selected for a tier 1 match recently, who is selected despite the incumbent(s) being available.

So who fits that qualification in this 23:

Robertson (Kepu)
Godwin (Hodge)
Morahan (Folau)
Skelton maybe (Arnold)
Nayarovoro (DHP)

The remaining 18 players could arguably be selected in our best 23 any day of the week.

Foley and Cooper are both A graders and are being rotated. If Lance had been selected that would be a B grader. Similarly, Timani and McMahon are both A graders, Dempsey would be B grade. Etc, etc.

 

[Scoey]

Fuck this thread is a bit rank! Actually pretty much every match thread this tour has been like this.

 

[Train Without a Station]

You have some odd logic.

Maybe Hodge is a B selection behind the injured Giteau. MAYBE. Considering he's a different type of player and Foley was really the "B" selection due to injury (in that he was a more like for like replacement) he's more likely now a first choice starter.

You could not argue Godwin is anything other than a "B" selection. He has never once been selected over anybody and is now only selected in a match where there are 10 other rotations from the previous 3 games.

Cooper/Foley and McMahon/Timani yes. There is questions over where they (McMahon and Timani) fall in the pecking order.

Slipper, Latu, Ala'alatoa, Simmons, Douglas, Fardy, Godwin, Morahan and Naivalu, there are not questions over.

Simmons comes in for the injured Douglas. Yes that makes perfect sense. Latu for Moore due to workload and a player for Folau for the same reason.

In a long season you may need to play some "B" selections at times. Fair enough.

Just gives more reason not to combine it with another 6 or 7 unforced selection changes.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Fair go.

I am not part of the flower mafia and have wanted Cooper starting and Hooper on the bench.

However it has to be recognised there are a lot of anti tah people there who want most of the tah players out.

They have their wish. So if the replacements play poorly or not as well the incumbents they surely should own that and say the tah players deserev their spots.

PK, I would never have placed you in that group. There is distinct balance in all of your posts - I find I mostly agree with your observations.

 

[gel]

Fair go.

I am not part of the flower mafia and have wanted Cooper starting and Hooper on the bench.

However it has to be recognised there are a lot of anti tah people there who want most of the tah players out.

They have their wish. So if the replacements play poorly or not as well the incumbents they surely should own that and say the tah players deserev their spots.

I don't believe that making mass changes provides anyone the opportunity to judge any of the players accurately.

I have seen too many new teams spend an entire preseason together and then run out for the first match and look like they have only just met to think that any solid conclusions will be derived from this many changes.

 

[KOB1987]

Maybe Hodge is a B selection behind the injured Giteau. MAYBE. Considering he's a different type of player and Foley was really the "B" selection due to injury (in that he was a more like for like replacement) he's more likely now a first choice starter.

You could not argue Godwin is anything other than a "B" selection. He has never once been selected over anybody and is now only selected in a match where there are 10 other rotations from the previous 3 games.

How is that different to Kuridrani? And I'm still confused as to how Speight doesn't count?

But again we aren't comparing apples with apples because I look at the 23 whereas you clearly only count the 1-15 in your team.

So who fits that qualification in this 23:

Robertson (Kepu)
Godwin (Hodge)
Morahan (Folau)
Skelton maybe (Arnold)
Nayarovoro (DHP)

The Godwin/Hodge example was just to make a point about objectivity, as you can see I agree Godwin is a B grader.

Anyway, it's been a healthy debate, so cheers, but I'm going to retire from it now as it's getting to the point where it will start going around in circles and be annoying for everyone else.

So I'll let the scoreboard do the talking and we can reconvene on the matter on Sunday morning.

 

[Scotty]

These aren't great comparisons though, surely you see that.

No-one gives a rat's about International Rugby League. The Kangaroos picked Semi Radradra, a genuine Fijian this year and no-one cared at all.

And cricket is a completely different game, with different physical demands. And even taking that into account we have still 'rotated' our fast bowlers quite extensively to deal with workload.

I'm not trying to say Cheika is above criticism here, just that other code comparisons don't really work.
.

The comparisons were put forward to get people to think about what is happening. Representing your country is about pride and passion, and honouring the jersey.

We should not be so accepting of the bullshit that is coming out of the wallaby coaching staff at the moment. They are on a slippery slope and are making up all sorts of stories to justify their true intentions (which is to focus on winning the grand slam and signing a new player by promising squad selection).

 

[Train Without a Station]

How is it different to Kuridrani?

Because without injury Kuridrani would not be starting clearly. Kerevi was selected for 6 consecutive test matches over Kuridrani. Kuridrani was then only included when Kerevi was unavailable.

Kuridrani was once a first choice. Since Kerevi got opportunity he no longer is. (Personally I'd have him with Kerevi but that's a whole other discussion).

Hodge was an unforced selection. Due to Giteau being unavailable prior to that he may possibly be an injury selection. This is one of my later referenced, grey areas.

I'm not sure agreeing a guy that is selected to make his test debut in a team with mass rotations is showing how objective you are in qualifying somebody as a "B" grader. Godwin would probably acknowledge that he was a "B" Grader.

Caps, experience, regular position, etc. are all irrelevant. It's whether a player is a first choice selection.

Generally there can only be 15. There may be a few grey areas at times though. There are not 11 grey areas though.

 

[Pfitzy]

So explain why when we were 15 up vs Wales or 15 down vs the ABs he didn't bring Cooper on or switch DHP to fullback.

Not a good argument Nick.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating a fact: we have players without serious game time. They're getting a run now.

People here and on other platforms still aren't happy with this approach for a variety of reasons, which is pretty surprising* given the mood of supporting the Wallabies through thick and thin that has been spotted here at times.

We had some players go long minutes in a 3 Tests with only a week's break, most of which was spent acclimating to new conditions. They've won two of those games and some of them get a rest. Others get an opportunity to put some match fitness into the legs before the two most important games of the tour.

I don't see how this is a disadvantage**.

Mr Doug has been calling for Folau to get the arse for weeks. Now that's happened, and someone else gets a chance.

People saying Morahan earned his position because of his barbarian form. Didn't he start from the bench in 2 games and was only in the staring team v the Czechs?

Yeah Reg but he still gets a shot, because the form he showed in those games was pretty bloody good.

We'd all love to be selectors in hindsight, and I was no fan of Koroibete going in the first place. But its the coach's prerogative and if that delivers us success (EDIT: now and into the future), then I can get behind that.



* By which I mean "It totally fucking isn't surprising at all."

** Unless someone is helping to pilot the Cheika Hatemobile, which then it makes perfect sense because satisfaction is around the next corner or behind the last.

 

[barbarian]

Scotty - people are thinking plenty, as evidenced by the last few pages of this thread. I don't think people have missed the point you make.

I think the discussion you want to have would be far more relevant if Korobeite was picked in the side. Because I don't think you can accuse any of the 24 blokes picked of not having pride in the jersey, or not 'doing their time' in Australian rugby.

I don't see too much 'bullshit' from Wallaby coaching staff, and I think there's a touch of tin foil hat in your last par. They are very open that they are rotating players, and this isn't the top 15:

"You don't give away a starting jersey for Australia lightly," Cheika said. "Allan hasn't started or been in this type of firestorm before and it's going to be a huge challenge. We're better placed to get him experience here against the massive front row they'll have and he's got a great attitude.

"Tolu didn't get a run last week, so I just think it'll be really good for them to prepare from the start of a game. I know they're inexperienced as a starting front row... but I'm sure they'll do a good job.
"Pocock, Fardy, there's two of the back row from that World Cup final as well. I wanted to try to get a blend of both. I don't just want to go, 'here you go young guys, have a game', I want to give them the opportunity to play with experienced players."

 

[Scotty]

The lunacy continues. Cheika is now saying he hasn't rested anyone - just made 'choices'

Errr?

 

[Twoilms]

The comparisons were put forward to get people to think about what is happening. Representing your country is about pride and passion, and honouring the jersey.

We should not be so accepting of the bullshit that is coming out of the wallaby coaching staff at the moment. They are on a slippery slope and are making up all sorts of stories to justify their true intentions (which is to focus on winning the grand slam and signing a new player by promising squad selection).

What are you talking about. What bullshit? he's come out and said he wants to give out of form players a shot and throw them in the mix with some new young talent, whilst resting solid first XVers.

What part of that is Bullshit? He said he never promised Korobiete shit and true to form he hasn't been picked in the only game he might have been.

You're just taking an easy pop at Cheika for doing exactly what every person on this forum was predicting he would do: prioritize the Grand Slam.

 

[Scrubber2050]

The lunacy continues. Cheika is now saying he hasn't rested anyone - just made 'choices'

Errr?

It's just about the "spin" Scotty

Nothing more, nothing less.