2015 IRB Junior Rugby World Cup - Italy

[Quick Hands]

Ha, love the overconfidence from the Orc commentators pre game. Basically saying the baby blacks couldn't stand up to their forward pack. ABE.

Post game the commentators humbly eat their pie as quietly as a Stormer supporter on the Brumbies/Stormer game thread post siren.

Finding an overconfident English rugby supporter isn't too hard though is it?

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Pretty sure I've seen it somewhere I this thread, but searched back and can't find it: what do the pools look like for next year now? Just heard that 4th place goes into the pool with 1st place (so NZ and SA together). Where do 2, 3, 5 and 6 placings go in the 2016 pools?

Comparing 2014 standings with 2015 pools:

Pool A 1,6,7,qualifier
Pool B 2,5,8,11
Pool C 3,4,9,10

So if the same applies in 2016:

Pool A New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, Georgia
Pool B England, Australia, Scotland, Italy
Pool C South Africa, France, Argentina, Japan

So very much what @H35 theorised above:

I dunno.

I'd guess:

1,6,7, Trophy Winner
2,5,8,9
3,4,10,11

But it could be anything.

But as he says, no guarantee they'll do the same next year as this.

 

[Dan54]

(Blame the Scots not us - the touchie AR called it )
I did IS, (Thought young Aussie ref was pretty good even if YC was bullshit, but his AR gave him some pretty wrong info that lead to it.)
I did think the ref deserved kudos, as he seemed to be quite calm and clear the whole game.

 

[Brumby Runner]

So, in both games against the Saffas and the Scots, the Aussies looked like boys up against men. Where are the giant forwards in Aus rugby? Lukhan is the standout big man and pretty much held his own, but generally the locks and back rowers look to be much smaller than their oppositon.

Why is there an apparent preference in Aus for undersized backs, particularly in the critical No 10 spot? Technique will get the forwards a long way, but talent in the backline would be hugely enhanced by a bit more size. Even with the win over Scotland, can't see the Aus U20s being competitive with the likes of SA, England and NZ until we get some bigger backs who play bigger as well as with talent.

Notwithstanding, I thought Jonah was again outstanding at FB and Hanigan was the pick of the forwards. Cameron Orr looked strong in the scrums and Sandell was strong in open play.

 

[redhead]

Few comments after rather disappointing performance of Aus under 20 team during JRWC 2015.
We do not much the size and physicality of forward pack with 3 top teams (NZ,England and SA) and until this change we will never be competitive for top 3 finish. Easily said though these players do not grow on trees and except Tupou and Tui and do not see any prospects for 2016.
Our backs are fast and skilful but they defensive work remains deficient. I agree with the comment that they were one of the smallest back line in the tournament. So we need size here as well. Magnay and Tuipolotu a good start for 2016.
Overall we were outplayed by SA in front and this was going to happened irrespective of the excellent play of some of ours forwards. We were too small, too inexperienced and in general made too many simple mistakes ( lost balls, poor kicking etc).
Standouts for the tournament: I have no doubt that Adam Korczyk was the best forward, his work rate, physicality and vision kept the team in the play for the 5th. I was happy with the back line Hanigan, Gunn and Korczyk with Tui having a great time. Again the front row has had some problems (even in the last game) but Orr and Sandell stood up.
Jonah Placid was the best player from the back line. The rest was hot and cold.
Overall we need a new breed of players for 2016 in Manchester.

 

[FrontRowFan]

.
Overall we were outplayed by SA in front and this was going to happened irrespective of the excellent play of some of ours forwards. We were too small, too inexperienced and in general made too many simple mistakes ( lost balls, poor kicking etc).

Bit hard to tell of these comments are all about the forwards, but if so, it's the backs who kick away possession, not the forwards.

 

[redhead]

I thought that we are all here talking rugby. Obviously our back line was also outplayed.

 

[kiap]

So, in both games against the Saffas and the Scots, the Aussies looked like boys up against men. Where are the giant forwards in Aus rugby?

I think the raw talent is out there but you've got to go looking for them. Talent identification (olympic style) in high schools and steering good prospects into sports they are suited for.

Rory Arnold (one of twins) started playing rugby at age 19. A 6'10" bloke playing in a bush league in far north NSW. Will Skelton took up rugby at under 16 level. But it takes multiple years of pro academy work to get to the elite level, so these guys are well into their 20s before getting into contention.

 

[I like to watch]

Caderyn Neville is another good example,was in an elite Rowing program before trying rugby as an adult.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Why is there an apparent preference in Aus for undersized backs, particularly in the critical No 10 spot? Technique will get the forwards a long way, but talent in the backline would be hugely enhanced by a bit more size. Even with the win over Scotland, can't see the Aus U20s being competitive with the likes of SA, England and NZ until we get some bigger backs who play bigger as well as with talent.

I dont think Deegan is much smaller than, say, McKenzie who is now playing S15 and is a standout.
Our pigs did not look fit and hard like the SA or NZ pigs. The NZ locks did not look huge - Lukhan would be as tall and heavier but I saw him doing quite a bit of walking early in the tournament.
What is the obsession with size, for its own sake, in the backline? it matters not one bit if those you pick have no "vision" - not the Ribot "vision" but the Horan "vision" - however big they are: the NZ backs were not huge. They might have been taller but they looked a good deal leaner than our blokes who appear to have been picked for the sake of size alone - I saw little evidence of any deftness in their play.
Placid is a good athlete but his reading of the game is sub par.
This wont be popular but: if we keep picking backs with league backgrounds or who play like league players we are going to get blokes who are quite happy to die with the ball and who will not be looking for the pass to set up a wider man - all this one handed flicking out the back as praised in other threads should be seen as a failure of vision and planning by the bloke doing it. Instead we marvel at the skill of the last minute offload out of the back of the hand (dare i say "on the 6th"?).
The search should be for hard fit lean young men not 115 kg monsters with no workrate (in the pigs) or vision (in the backs)

 

[Marcelo]

Caderyn Neville is another good example,was in an elite Rowing program before trying rugby as an adult.

So ARU must seek among powerlifters

 

[muddy]

I dont think Deegan is much smaller than, say, McKenzie who is now playing S15 and is a standout.
Our pigs did not look fit and hard like the SA or NZ pigs. The NZ locks did not look huge - Lukhan would be as tall and heavier but I saw him doing quite a bit of walking early in the tournament.
What is the obsession with size, for its own sake, in the backline? it matters not one bit if those you pick have no "vision" - not the Ribot "vision" but the Horan "vision" - however big they are: the NZ backs were not huge. They might have been taller but they looked a good deal leaner than our blokes who appear to have been picked for the sake of size alone - I saw little evidence of any deftness in their play.
Placid is a good athlete but his reading of the game is sub par.
This wont be popular but: if we keep picking backs with league backgrounds or who play like league players we are going to get blokes who are quite happy to die with the ball and who will not be looking for the pass to set up a wider man - all this one handed flicking out the back as praised in other threads should be seen as a failure of vision and planning by the bloke doing it. Instead we marvel at the skill of the last minute offload out of the back of the hand (dare i say "on the 6th"?).
The search should be for hard fit lean young men not 115 kg monsters with no workrate (in the pigs) or vision (in the backs)

That is true , size does help but its not everything , nz pack was just a lil bit bigger then ours. i think what our boys miss is just decent competition back home... beside a few super contracted players, the others need to be playing top grade football 2-3 good solid years, none of this playing in colts rugby and all that.. i think individually we had good players but quite a few of them just look a year or maybe 2 behind the other teams ie england , sa and nz.. i wouldnt be surprised after a year or 2 some names int his squad will break through, like i said individually most are good players, but they need couple of years of top rugby either through grade or a consistent under 20s tournament , i would propose that the australian comp where the junior waratahs , brumbies , reds etc play in should be under 20s so you can have a alot of games on a consistent basis, and the only over 20s players you can have are the ones that are contracted to super and are not needed for game day , they can play curtain raisers or the day before or after

 

[Inside Shoulder]

nz pack was just a lil bit bigger then ours

but poms were bigger than them and they were not demolished - despite poms getting a pushover against SA who took us apart.
Its about technique - just as it is in the backs.
When the NZ 13 went off and the 11(?) move into O/C he was pretty slight (by our standards) but highly effective. Makes me wonder if he wold have event got a look in in oz because he was not sufficiently over developed.

 

[rugby roo]

Mr Inside Shoulder.
Some excellent comments and views you portray in your post.
I also agree "size doesnt matter" when technique and skills are up there providing opposition with enough challenges to worry about other than your comparitive weight or bulk.
It did look to me on occasions that we were outclassed on occasions at team level . Most individuals can hold their own at contests but as ateam we lacked direction and a little bit of experience which definitely shone through some of the better teams we faced including NZ who obviously decided after last few years that whatever they were doing was not good enough.
maybe we should review processes as well but I fully endorse the Oceania tournament as a big step in the right direction.
I also think the squads for Nationals should be picked earlier than current so they can play more games together rather than select one "super team" for Nationals never to play again together afterwards as a unit because of Aus 20 phase.
Keep the guys together for a curtain raiser to some Super Rugby games after Aus 20s completion . It would be very good exposure and they would get at least 2 more games like say NSW 20s v Brumbies 20s prior to Tahs v Highlands this week.
Cant be that hard.
There are some skilled players in current squad but need to time to mature and develop into top shelf players and they will .
Our boys tried hard and did their best which is all we can ask but it is not good enough yet to push for higher honours in a ridiculous 4 into 3 semi final format.Once again i am perplexed for surely SANZAR can help "sponsor" another Pacific Island team or two and European powerhouse can do same so we can have a proper 16 team tournament without affecting IRB trophy tournament.

 

[Brian Westlake]

So, in both games against the Saffas and the Scots, the Aussies looked like boys up against men. Where are the giant forwards in Aus rugby? Lukhan is the standout big man and pretty much held his own, but generally the locks and back rowers look to be much smaller than their oppositon.

Why is there an apparent preference in Aus for undersized backs, particularly in the critical No 10 spot? Technique will get the forwards a long way, but talent in the backline would be hugely enhanced by a bit more size. Even with the win over Scotland, can't see the Aus U20s being competitive with the likes of SA, England and NZ until we get some bigger backs who play bigger as well as with talent.

Notwithstanding, I thought Jonah was again outstanding at FB and Hanigan was the pick of the forwards. Cameron Orr looked strong in the scrums and Sandell was strong in open play.

Now I regularly get shit put upon me for my bias, but your suggestions against A Deegan are simply weird. Move DP in from 12 to 10 so no one sees the ball? Please, give me a break. How about giving Deegan a halfback?
Then the previous top try scoring winger may have got some more meat. I thank @Inside Shoulder quoted peripheral vision for the centres.
If size is the only criteria you work on, BOD would never have played. Ken Wright would be riding trackwork and Chris Roche would never have toured (Still one of the best scraggers I have seen).
A wonderful old coach I had said "Go for brains over brawn.Means you only have to tell them once"

 

[Brian Westlake]

So ARU must seek among powerlifters

No

 

[I like to watch]

Now I regularly get shit put upon me for my bias, but your suggestions against A Deegan are simply weird. Move DP in from 12 to 10 so no one sees the ball? Please, give me a break. How about giving Deegan a halfback?
Then the previous top try scoring winger may have got some more meat. I thank @Inside Shoulder quoted peripheral vision for the centres.
If size is the only criteria you work on, BOD would never have played. Ken Wright would be riding trackwork and Chris Roche would never have toured (Still one of the best scraggers I have seen).
A wonderful old coach I had said "Go for brains over brawn.Means you only have to tell them once"

Deegan did not go nearly well enough to be an automatic starter in each game.
I'm surprised that the 10,12,13 weren't shuffled around in one of the first two games ,if only to confirm to there were no better combinations available than that in game 1.

 

[Brian Westlake]

Deegan did not go nearly well enough to be an automatic starter in each game.
I'm surprised that the 10,12,13 weren't shuffled around in one of the first two games ,if only to confirm to there were no better combinations available than that in game 1.

He may not have played his best, but at least he can pass a football.
And, yes, you answered your own question for the second part.

 

[I like to watch]

I just don't accept our best backline has 3 guys playing out of the position for which they were selected.

 

[formerflanker]

No

I don't think the experiment with powerlifter Watson Crighton worked.