2016 Super Rugby Expansion

[Inside Shoulder]

The problem with Japan is that they already have their corporation backed clubs which take their rugby very seriously and have developed tribal followings.
How do you get a Super Rugby team(s) to fit into that structure?

It would be out of season for them so you could almost have a national team playing - actually could be bloody competitive i would have thought.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Funny thing is that I would suspect that both SA and NZ have reached market saturation, or are very near it. Australia has a lot of room for growth, but we are in no way able to sustain another franchise. So really the only other viable option for expansion is Argentina. The games played in Argentina would be on at a reasonable viewing time for the SA audience as well.

Noticed the crowds in NZ for s 15 and even NPC in 2012 were way down on what they used to be - you may be right

 

[Scoey]

I love the current set up. The move to Super 15 has been excellent in my opinion. I love the increased derby matches; particularly the SA and NZ ones, and I love the finals set up. The conference system works well and whilst I'm all for expansion, I think they should wait a while before thinking seriously about changing what we have.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Super Rugby is seen as the pinnacle of provincial Rugby worldwide and that in and of itself should be reason to let it bed down and grow. The current set up is still a baby after all.

The conference system works well because each conference is represented somewhat evenly (in terms of team numbers) and to add a sixth team in one of the conferences I think would be problematic.

 

[James Buchanan]

Really has to be Argentina otherwise you're looking at playing Jap or Us teams in their summer.

Well, given that it starts in February, its more throughout their Spring and into their Summer. Either way, that's not necessarily a bad thing with the US because you're not going head to head with American Football for an audience and instead are providing them with something similar shortly after the NFL season finishes.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

They would be better served working on getting Rugby on ESPN at a reasonable time slot for a while before looking down this route.

 

[Set piece magic]

IMO perhaps in the future we could see Japan and USA etc joining in, however not in this format. I think what should happen is that Super Rugby should eventually become a sort of champions league - the top 3 sides from whatever country being in it and playing against the others in a small turnament, akin to say the heinekin cup. Aus rugby should then have a full national comp behind that.

 

[p.Tah]

Rather than saying that expanding into the Americas and Asia won't work, I'd rather ask how can this work and then judge those proposals.

I like the idea in principle and hope it can work without being too much of a drain on players.

I look back on the opportunities in Australian rugby that have passed us by. Rugby was very strong in the 1930s in Victoria but we never capitalised on that period. We've had numerous opportunities to have state tournaments or national club championships but they never eventuated. This is one of those occasions. I would hate supporters in Australia to look back in 50 years time and ask why did we let an opportunity like this slip past.

Japan, Canada and the US have all expressed interest in joining Super Rugby. From Nigel Melville USA Rugby CEO:

A few years ago I attended a meeting with the SANZAR Nations in Wellington to discuss the possible expansion of the Super 14 Rugby Competition (as it was at that point). Joining me at the meeting were representatives from Argentina, Canada and Japan, all presented their case

http://nigelmelville.com/2012/02/20/super-rugby-expansion-we-are-ready-to-talk/

Time zone wise Japan is the best fit for SA, NZ and Australia. On a Friday or Saturday we can kick off in NZ, then watch a game on the East Coast of Australia and then a game in Japan. We get that fantastic block of 3 back to back games such as when the Force play at home. 7:30pm in Tokyo is 12:30pm in Jo'burg. The Super Rugby season is during the offseason of the Japanese Top League, so they can keep their league. A Japanese Super rugby team (or teams) would help develop their players further whilst giving them match practice before their Test season (Pacific Nations Cup). Currently rugby in Japan is an older person's spectator sport and crowds are dwindling from the heydays in the 1980s. The National women's soccer team gets a bigger crowd than the men's National rugby team in Tokyo. A new option (Super Rugby) targeted at a younger demographic with international appeal could revive the game ahead on the 2019 RWC. John Kirwan was against Japan entering Super rugby, but Eddie Jones has slammed Japanese rugby for being stuck in the 1950s. Perhaps a complete new change could reinvigorate the game there.

The Argentinean time zone (kick off 7:30pm Buenos Aires) is friendly for NZ and Australia but not so good for SA (12:30am Jo'Burg). However having a team in Super rugby containing some of their best players would reduce the chance of players being held back by their club (e.g. French Clubs) during the Rugby Championship. It could help their competitiveness at Test level because they could develop their player combinations as a group rather than being pulled together from a multitude of European clubs.

The US and Canada could potentially bring a large additional broadcast deal. The time zone on the West Coast is reasonable for NZ and Australia but not so good for South Africa. I would like the US to develop their own National comp, and by WorkingClassRuggers posts it sounds as if there are a few proposals out there. However I believe they would benefit by having a team or two in Super rugby because, similar to Japan, their talent would be concentrated and this would improve their standard (especially if they had imports to learn from). Why should Super Rugby be used as a development tool for the Americas, well that's exactly what we in Australia are doing and its paid off handsomely (despite all their protests) for NZ and South Africa.

I say to SANZAR explore the opportunity, work the numbers and the logistics. See if it can be done. In the end I do believe it can help all involved and ultimately help local and international rugby.

 

[PaarlBok]

Its not about pushing, SA will get their 6 teams. Been there , done this to death, said it at the start S14 will change to S100 in years to come and mocker our CC.

 

[Groucho]

Most Pacific inlander players who could play super rugby are already playing in the comp and 2. the players that dont would prefer to play in Europe and make the big bucks.

That doesn't make sense. Who are all of these who can play Supe Rugby and already are?

There are dozens of high quality PI players in Europe. Why "can't" they play super rugby? Are you saying they "won't" because of the money?

A combined PI squad could easily be a finals contender.

 

[Jets]

I think if this expansion is going to go ahead they will just add a new conference of 5 teams so that the total teams reaches 20. Then the season will look more like the NFL where they play the teams in their conference twice and maybe 2 teams from each other conference each season. Then the finals could be expanded to include the top 8 teams with the winner of each conference guaranteed a spot.
If this is the way they go then a conference consisting of a team from Japan (Tokyo), Canada (Vancouver), US (LA or San Fran), Argentina (Buenos Aires) and Pacific Islands (not sure where you would base them) could be added. It would be a hell of a conference in terms of travel. This would open Super Rugby up to new markets and bring in options for new revenue.
I don't hate the idea but 2016 might be too soon. The one thing that I don't expect to happen is for SA to get another team. It just won't work in the conference system.

 

[liquor box]

I would for a new Americas conference, and do my hardest for the US teams to be college based teams, they can get a lot of financial support from benefactors and also get coverage on College tv networks.
I would have 2 Canadian, 2 US and 2 Argie teams in their conference.
I would add Japan to the current Australian conference
I would add an Islander team to the NZ conference (not a combined team, either Tonga, Samoa or Fiji)
I would add another SA side to the SA conference.
this brings us to 24 teams all up. I would start with the current setup of Aus,NZ and SA as it is with an extra team each and then let the Americas conference play amongst themselves in a shorter season with their winner coming into the sanzar teams finals. They would most likely be whipped for the first few years and when they have proven their worth I would allow them to have a bigger role.

Eventually I would like 7 teams in each conference, add another Japanese team to the Australian conference, another Island to NZ and hopefully another African country to the SA conference. I would also hope that with the Rugby Championship including Argentina that in 5-10 years time they might be able to provide a third team to an American conference.

 

[emuarse]

That doesn't make sense. Who are all of these who can play Supe Rugby and already are?

There are dozens of high quality PI players in Europe. Why "can't" they play super rugby? Are you saying they "won't" because of the money?

A combined PI squad could easily be a finals contender.

In fact would probably be too strong!

 

[Bardon]

I'd love to see a Super Rugby II as a tier below S15. This could include teams from the proposed countries with the option of the SANZAR member unions adding franchises to it. They could have ring fencing so there's no promotion/relegation for a set number of years to protect the existing franchises. That way S15 would be able to expand into new markets without diluting the quality of the S15 competition. Canadian, Japanese, US & domestic PI & Argentinian players would have a higher level of competition. But more importantly than any of that there would be more rugby for me to watch.

 

[wamberal]

That doesn't make sense. Who are all of these who can play Supe Rugby and already are?

There are dozens of high quality PI players in Europe. Why "can't" they play super rugby? Are you saying they "won't" because of the money?

A combined PI squad could easily be a finals contender.

Except for the unfortunate fact that Fijians, Samoans, and Tongans do not want to play in a combined team, and the politics would be absolutely horrendous.


Plus, where would they play their home games? Suva, presumably, in front of three thousand spectators? Who would sponsor them? Etc etc.

 

[Orange Peeler]

I would prefer a Champions League type of format.
Each Country would conduct there own national provincial championships with the top two or three placed teams qualifying for the Champions League.
The Pacific Island Nations would enter under there own identity in the Champions League, however they should seriously consider having a Combined Pacific Island Team when it comes to Test Level.

 

[liquor box]

Except for the unfortunate fact that Fijians, Samoans, and Tongans do not want to play in a combined team, and the politics would be absolutely horrendous.


Plus, where would they play their home games? Suva, presumably, in front of three thousand spectators? Who would sponsor them? Etc etc.

a crowd of 3000 is not that important, it is their ratings that will allow them to survive. If they played a great brand of rugby that every rugby fan wanted to watch then they will get a sponsor based on TV viewership.
Of course crowds help, but they are not the only source of revenue

 

[TOCC]

a crowd of 3000 is not that important, it is their ratings that will allow them to survive. If they played a great brand of rugby that every rugby fan wanted to watch then they will get a sponsor based on TV viewership.
Of course crowds help, but they are not the only source of revenue

To be fair, removing the income from crowds, merchandise sales and having a smaller economy to leverage sponsorship is going to make a Pacific Islands team a very delicate proposition in terms of been financially sustainable.. If a team from the pacific islands is to be formed they would need strong government support which is a possibility, but it would be a risky venture for SANZAR with the threat of having to prop up the team financially.

 

[p.Tah]

^^An article from NZ on this. Essentially they'd need a wealthy benefactor and competent administrators.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ic-Islands-unlikely-for-Super-Rugby-expansion

 

[Lindommer]

The exciting prospect of rugby sweeping all before it in both the SH and Pacific is very tantalising, but there are a few potholes to consider:

• the viability of clubs and quality of play in both Japan and North America has an enormous amount of development to be done before they're up to the standard of the weakest Super sides.
• enticing (very) well-paid Argentinean and PI players to return from France to their homelands will be difficult. ATM, impossible. We can't keep our fringe Oz and NZ players here apart from the army of Saffer players in Europe and Japan. The sixth or so best Oz five-eighth (Brock James) probably earns twice as much as the best one playing here.
• despite advancements in communications since I was a kid, and vastly improved travel times, getting players around the current Super Rugby venues is a massive logistical exercise. There's not another sporting competition on earth with the travel our blokes do. Players in the Russian soccer comp travel 6,537km from St Petersburg to Vladisvostok; it's 11,770km from Cape Town to Auckland! The extra travel in the envisaged expanded competition is fraught with danger.
• to my mind professional rugby in the SH still has an enormous amount of development to do with the current setup. It hasn't reached it's 21st birthday for chrissake. The people staffing our unions in all three countries (almost without exception) need to be people who've grown up in the pro era. The management of our squads and the Super Rugby competition are still light years behind soccer, for example; here in Oz, we have AFL, league and cricket showing us how to run pro sport. Apart from our particular woes the financial problems in NZ keeping its third tier viable must be solved, and the shitfight in SAf over their fifth (or sixth?) team will take years to settle down. We've only had two years of the current conference system, please let it grow up first. But on a macro level there's still a shitload of work to be done of the financial side of rugby in the SH. And we need to lift rugby's profile massively in the peak winter playing times; for me, I'd like to see Super Rugby smack bang up against all the other codes and test rugby wound back a bit.

These potential problems aren't insurmountable, but they MUST be addressed before we add a few rooms to the building and take in some more boarders.

 

[Sidbarret]

To make it worthwhile for SARU, any further Super Rugby expansion would presumably have to add one more South African team and also guarantee that the SARU were going to make substantially more money out of the whole thing.

South Africa's biggest issue as far as I can tell is the number of players they lose to Europe. Putting South African rugby in a position where they can keep more of their players on home soil would seem to be the one incentive that could make extra travel worthwhile for them.

Random musings -

Super rugby is viewed fundamentally different in SA than it is in Australia. And it is not really clear what exactly is best for rugby in South Africa.

South Africa actually does quite well at keeping players playing in South Africa. I can only think of Pienaar, Francios Steyn and Francois Louw who has gone overseas recently despite their franchises being desperate to keep them.

Obviously it would be great to have more money, but given a choice it would be best if this money is generated locally, instead of getting hooked on cheap dollars and yen.

South Africa needs more opportunities for players to play in a professional competition, but that does not necessarily means having more super rugby teams. Most people would prefer to have a 8 team currie cup season where players, but that would require the super season to be cut back.

Expansion into Asia and the US offers nothing that South Africa wants and if anything leaves us with less rugby that we care about.

An alternative would be for Australian teams to get involved with Japanese teams while SA and NZ are playing their third tier comps.