All Blacks v Springboks - Eden Park, Sept 14th 2013

[No4918]

Fact is though, the tackle was dangerous as evidenced by the injury to Carter.

huh?

I really do not understand how anyone can make that claim. It is a contact sport and people get injured falling badly all the time. Carter was unlucky, if anything his putting his elbow out in attempt to brace the impact probably forced the shock through his shoulder or exacerbated it.

You seem to be about the only person left in the rugby fraternity that has not accepted this was a legitimate tackle.

 

[whatty]

Yeah, well said Blue. Pretty much the first Springbok fan I've seen in the aftermath of this match to acknowledge du Plessis has a discipline problem from time to time.

It's not a discipline problem it is the mongrel and aggression that many fine players adopt.

You appear to be muddled between mongrel, aggressive play and been a dirty player.
Hence most on this forum disagreeing with you.

 

[PaarlBok]

To say BdP was going for glory and not going for turn-over ball is simply false. If the play hadn't been stopped and he hadn't been shown the YC, the Boks would have had possession from Carter's fumble when he hit the ground. So what if it was shoulder-first?!? That's a great tackle!! I'm not sure what you think should be first if it's not the shoulder?

Agree that he was silly (maybe just unlucky) with the 2nd YC but I don't think we should be singling this tackle out as 'dangerous' if we admit that it was legal. This is, actually, a dangerous game and those are the risks you take when you step out on the field. Dan Carter understands and accepts that and so should we.

Thanks Boet, at least you have been honest, respect for that. There was absolute nothing wrong with the tackle and if Battleship went in it with intend to hurt, he would have speared Carter. The second one I thought he follow a normal instinct running with the ball and it went wrong for both players. Penalty at the most.

There is a very thin line between hard and illegal in rugby. If supporters dont understand this, then they watch the wrong sport.

@ Blue: I expect it from Battleship, Etsebeth (hats off for him to kept his cool when the handbags throwing followed the Carter incident), Klein Flippie and Duanne. This one , no ways, it wasnt even a real hard tackle in our CC standards.

 

[Dan54]

Agree with almost all you say there Bullrush apart from 2nd yellow which I put in same class as Nonu's shoulder charge, just silly, did almost nothing but got yellow I feel a little for Poite in 2nd one as he asked Ayoub, who clearly said he struck with elbow, which is almost a red in itself, as any striking is supposed to recieve a red. Not saying what it was or wasn't, but wonder why Poite is considered in wrong for that when he was listening to TMO(which he should of done in 1st one).
Anyway as has been said lets hope the fools like Nonu pull in head, (I think Horwill is one who also needs to perhaps watch himself).
And I think we all should remember the BDP has had problems, I seem to recall him getting in trouble for eye gouging Adam Thomson??

 

[PaarlBok]

Note to HM. If Bismarck gets a yellow in future, yank him. We have the world's second best hooker on the bench.

If thats the case , then there is a massive differense between 1 and 2. Battleship work in the rucks is absolute outstanding. Pretty sure he suck up a few while he played. Strauss only get close when his balls get bitten.

 

[PaarlBok]

Agree with almost all you say there Bullrush apart from 2nd yellow which I put in same class as Nonu's shoulder charge, just silly, did almost nothing but got yellow I feel a little for Poite in 2nd one as he asked Ayoub, who clearly said he struck with elbow, which is almost a red in itself, as any striking is supposed to recieve a red. Not saying what it was or wasn't, but wonder why Poite is considered in wrong for that when he was listening to TMO(which he should of done in 1st one).
Anyway as has been said lets hope the fools like Nonu pull in head, (I think Horwill is one who also needs to perhaps watch himself).
And I think we all should remember the BDP has had problems, I seem to recall him getting in trouble for eye gouging Adam Thomson??

Boet I think you talking something up here. Nunu need to put up his muscara before matches. Play much better with it. There is a massive differense between tackling late using no arms (something you lot pissed yourself about Butch James) and running with the ball trying to fend off a tackler. Do you use tackle bags in NZ? Sound like you play touchies these days.

 

[cyclopath]

If thats the case , then there is a massive differense between 1 and 2. Battleship work in the rucks is absolute outstanding. Pretty sure he suck up a few while he played. Strauss only get close when his balls get bitten.

An alarming image!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

An alarming image!

another alarming image

 

[Mank]

So Rassie, we have been on the other end. Probably most countries in the world have. Samoa and Fiji have been dicked a couple of times on the big stage as well. Where are their apologies?! In all honesty, Saffers can suck it up and deal with it just like we've all had to before. That's sport..get over it.

We can just remind ourselves that we should have been down to 14 men for an entire game in the first 2009 BIL test after Schalk Burger raked someone's face but only got a yellow. So yes, in theory it all evens up. In practice, the rest of the world sees NZ as getting away with more than most. Whether that's true or not, who knows, probably not, but it's not impossible. (EDIT: I should not have said this, it's got nothing to do with the topic, apologies)

I'm done with the topic I guess, so I'll just leave it saying

a) Pissed off we didn't get to see a proper game
b) This mistake was so easily not made. The ref had already referred to the TMO for the post incident scuffle, I still can't comprehend why he didn't want to check his own call?

 

[Rassie]

Bullsrush first I want to congrats NZ on the win and in no way am I saying they did not deserve to win. They did. But thats not my point. Think past the gates of Eden Park and think of neutrals and selling the game of rugby. Game was spoilt because referees seem to apply SA do nothing by accident but on purpose mindset when officiating a game where SA is involved.

Secondly its not a attack on NZ so you do not have to jump the gun like it is when NZ are mentioned. Altough I do understand on the otherside why you would take it up as that due to some idiots yet again go and send harsh messages over Cyberspace to Messam. So its taken up as SA fans. Thus placing SA fans as one who all share the same view. I think outside SA rugby fans imagine every SA supporter looking like that twat who attacked the ref in Cape Town. Personally he loks like and no offense to people in the North but someone you find at Loftus or in Bloemfontein......

But coming back to my point. In 2002 to 2004 SA gave away a lot of penalties and some individuals took the smash the English thing a bit too far. Which resulted in a embarrising defeat and some real bad sportmanship. Also it created a image that SA went from physical to Thugby.

We also conceded more penalties than NZ and AUs in the Tri Nations. In 2004 Jake White's first year he took everything step by step. First counter attack. The penalty amount was still 50 percent more than Aus and NZ's.
New Zealand conceded 6.2 per game
Australia 7.1
South Africa 9.2

New Zealand v Australia ref: A Rolland (I) 2
Australia v New Zealand ref: J Kaplan (SA) 1
South Africa v Australia ref: P O’Brien (NZ) 2

NZ got the least amount of yellows which is understandable as they broke the law less than SA. All fine.

The next year he worked on the discipline. SA conceded the least amount of penalties but received the only YC. And it was in the first of the Aus vs SA match and this is where tolerance comes in it was given in the first half.

If we look at 2007

NEW ZEALAND For 43 Against 35
AUSTRALIA 39 39
SOUTH AFRICA 30 38

As you can see all three teams conceded roughly the same amount of penalties and if you consider SA see less possession the penalty is actually low for a team that defend a lot.

But in that year 6 cards were issued and 5 of them went to SA.
Foul play 1
Offside at ruck 1
Ruck/Tackle – Hands in Ruck 2
Ruck/Tackle – Preventing Release 2

I am not going to rant on and on but you get the picture when it all adds up SA have got triple the amount of YC for repeated infringements but got a lower penalty count. If you compare that in the six nations teams average around 50 pk in the tournament where they each get 1 or two YC. NZ run around 60 pk a tri nations and TRC series without a single YC.

Laws apply for both teams and how can NZ supporters be unhappy when its mentioned about the high penalty count low YC total. Not NZ fault as officials apply good image/bad image to games and judge teams on past digressions not at what is happening before them.

Every miss intercept on a slow ball 50 yards from the line with a fanned out defense is seen as deliberate. Its funny how Joubert and Peyper who are good refs standard suddenly dropped when around TRC games.

Considering what happened to Cobus Wessels and Dickinson I can understand why the reluctance of copping out YC in BC games or why touch judges ignore calls happening in front of them as it would mean they are out of a job. Its their profession and I would also keep my mouth shut if it could mean pointing it out might cost me my job. I suppose SA just accept it and goes on about it. Only to have it hhappening again and again. Look at poor Dickinson. He was scared in the end that he missed a Thorn Spear tackle right infront of him saying he did not see it.

So referees do get influenced by upper managements actions by slamming them in public and making a example of them. What do you think is going to happen next and its already happening? Everyone going to blame NZ and officials are going to avoid that might cost them their job.

Here is the tackle. I can assure you the BdP is another Saffer thug did more damage on the outcome of the referees decision than the clear and obvious did.

Its 2013 and yet we still seeing a problem which started in the 40's. If a ref gets intimidated by Kiwi fans in the stands then WTF is he doing there? Though I think thats a junk excuse cause SA would be much more intimidating considering you might get Piet van Zyl'd during the game

 

[PaarlBok]

We must stop looking at the person and concentrate on the system. We have modern technology with slow mo's and specialized TMO's BUT they still get it wrong. Its like the cricket aswell. Not many understand the system because they make it to complicated. Thats where the IRB should go.

Fact is now, the French ref wont ever get a Bok test again, thats the sad part.

 

[Muttonbird]

huh?

I really do not understand how anyone can make that claim. It is a contact sport and people get injured falling badly all the time. Carter was unlucky, if anything his putting his elbow out in attempt to brace the impact probably forced the shock through his shoulder or exacerbated it.

You seem to be about the only person left in the rugby fraternity that has not accepted this was a legitimate tackle.

No, I have accepted it was legal. That's not to say it wasn't dangerous though. Are you saying the tackle wasn't dangerous, even with the shoulder-lead and the body-slam, etc?

 

[cyclopath]

We must stop looking at the person and concentrate on the system. We have modern technology with slow mo's and specialized TMO's BUT they still get it wrong. Its like the cricket aswell. Not many understand the system because they make it to complicated. Thats where the IRB should go.

Fact is now, the French ref wont ever get a Bok test again, thats the sad part.

Agreed, PB. I wonder whether every 'foul play' YC should automatically be referred to the TMO, not the repeated slowing the ball type ones, but tackles / trips / punching etc...
It's an imperfect system, and like any system, is limited by its weakest link.

 

[Muttonbird]

It's not a discipline problem it is the mongrel and aggression that many fine players adopt.

You appear to be muddled between mongrel, aggressive play and been a dirty player.
Hence most on this forum disagreeing with you.

You don't think the leading elbow to the head was poor discipline? It's a yellow/red card offence according to the laws.

 

[Muttonbird]

There is a very thin line between hard and illegal in rugby. If supporters dont understand this, then they watch the wrong sport.

I think you've nailed it here PB. It is a very thin line so when infinitesimal mistakes by players and referees alike are made then we as fans should accept that and move on.

 

[Rassie]

Paarl Bakkies Botha gets cited in France for legally running over a attempted tackler. So you can see BdP, Botha, Etzebeth all are marked customers by officials and they would consider car accidents where culpable homicide is used as murder.

On the other hand the Ellis Park game should be interesting. Those guys from Johburg should scare the shit out of the official. Get some Hillbrow businessmen to fill up the front of the stands.....

 

[PaarlBok]

Paarl Bakkies Botha gets cited in France for legally running over a attempted tackler. So you can see BdP, Botha, Etzebeth all are marked customers by officials and they would consider car accidents where culpable homicide is used as murder.

On the other hand the Ellis Park game should be interesting. Those guys from Johburg should scare the shit out of the official. Get some Hillbrow businessmen to fill up the front of the stands...

There are not marked for nothing. Like my dad use to tell me when I got an innocent hiding (pakslae) at school. Its for all those when you got away!

I know Bakkies and Etsebeth can get going when the going gets tough. Battleship however is only a monster type player who you should avoiding running into on the rugby field. Its his presence on the field. But then Schalk Burger and Etsebeth knock him down stone cold (within the laws in tackles) in CC/S15 rugby in the past. Maybe its just the way we play the rugby in SA. Its been drilled from early day, when you tackle, make it count BUT within the laws. Thats why I am a bit disappointed in the Eden Park crowd. Look like they cant handle or appreciate a good old Boere tackle. The bag throwing from the All Black players also did not go down well for me. Luckily our lot kept their cool.

 

[Dan54]

Boet I think you talking something up here. Nunu need to put up his muscara before matches. Play much better with it. There is a massive differense between tackling late using no arms (something you lot pissed yourself about Butch James) and running with the ball trying to fend off a tackler. Do you use tackle bags in NZ? Sound like you play touchies these days.

Yep always used tackle bags Paarl, but alway taught my players that it is illegal to use elbow to fend player, you may use forearm but not elbow. Ok I didn't understand that was how you are taught to fend in SA, and if it is parhaps a little talk to coaches is in line. Like I say I think he only ripped elbow up at last minute and was not trying to elbow Messam, but regardless, you not meant to do it. I sure he accidently gouged Thomson's eyes too, but there again, you have to be a little careful these 'accidents' don't happen.

 

[Dan54]

I do agree with you Paarl, quite a large gap between BDP and Strauss as hookers , Bismarck is best in world bar none!!

 

[PaarlBok]

Yep always used tackle bags Paarl, but alway taught my players that it is illegal to use elbow to fend player, you may use forearm but not elbow. Ok I didn't understand that was how you are taught to fend in SA, and if it is parhaps a little talk to coaches is in line. Like I say I think he only ripped elbow up at last minute and was not trying to elbow Messam, but regardless, you not meant to do it. I sure he accidently gouged Thomson's eyes too, but there again, you have to be a little careful these 'accidents' don't happen.

Maybe I should again at the fend one. It look to me if Messam try to went lower and slip as an out of out elbow fending. The crowd booing and Messam dive did not help Bissie case much. The look on Bismarkt face tells it all.