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And to Wales

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disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
I'm with Spook on MMM I thought he was very ordinary in the 1st half although he did have a good 2nd half.

Naza is spot on about missing Palu & Mortlock, Cooper had a good game but he was never gonna fill the void.

It would have been great to have Palu come off the bench with 25 to go I think his go forward would have got us home.

We lost the game by kicking away to much possesion simple as that, we actually gained better field position when we ran it back.
 

Aussie D

Dick Tooth (41)
naza said:
Aussie D said:
Burgess decision making was a little better but his passing was woeful at times.

Gee, it must just be force of habit how brutal people are on Wallaby halfbacks. If his passing was bad, why'd you give him 3 points in WPOTY ?

Because, despite his at times woeful passing, I still rated him Oz' best player. Unlike your pin-up boy George Gregan he didn't wait around for the ball to come out on a silver platter, he went in digging for it - at times counter rucking if we had run out of forwards.
 
S

Spook

Guest
Don't bring GG into this. He was loads better than Burgess at the same age. Moving along...

I thought Burgess missed quite a few tackles and kicked poorly. Better service this match but he was nowhere near the best player for the Wallabies. I'm disappointed he doesn't run the ball with any great effect. I suppose it's pretty hard these days.
 
P

PhucNgo

Guest
And just for the record.

For anyone doubting Drew Mitchell's defensive capabilities his diving tackle on Byrne(?) in the first half has got to be one of the best from an Oz player since GG's (Am I alowed to mention him?) in '94.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Spook said:
Don't bring GG into this. He was loads better than Burgess at the same age. Moving along...

I thought Burgess missed quite a few tackles and kicked poorly. Better service this match but he was nowhere near the best player for the Wallabies. I'm disappointed he doesn't run the ball with any great effect. I suppose it's pretty hard these days.

To be fair, Burgess has had no real room to run much on the EOYT. But I agree - I wouldn't give him points, but then I couldn't really find anyone who deserved points either.

Yeah, Burgess' kicking game was poor - but so was most of the Wallabies. He was just another one of the backs kicking away silly ball. Why would the Wallabies box kick from a lineout with clean ball on our 40m line? And why, especially, would Burgess, not a noted kicker, be doing it?

I hope it's not a Deans game plan, as that is very very negative rugby, and we got justly punished.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Ash said:
Spook said:
Don't bring GG into this. He was loads better than Burgess at the same age. Moving along...

I thought Burgess missed quite a few tackles and kicked poorly. Better service this match but he was nowhere near the best player for the Wallabies. I'm disappointed he doesn't run the ball with any great effect. I suppose it's pretty hard these days.

To be fair, Burgess has had no real room to run much on the EOYT. But I agree - I wouldn't give him points, but then I couldn't really find anyone who deserved points either.

Yeah, Burgess' kicking game was poor - but so was most of the Wallabies. He was just another one of the backs kicking away silly ball. Why would the Wallabies box kick from a lineout with clean ball on our 40m line? And why, especially, would Burgess, not a noted kicker, be doing it?

I hope it's not a Deans game plan, as that is very very negative rugby, and we got justly punished.

It is Dean's game plan and it is the AB & Crusaders as well. The goal is to have a good chase and create a turnover/error, watch the second Aus bled match to watch the ABs give a master class in the tactic........................................... but chase was rubbish all game.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
OK, who's fault was it we lost?
It was our fault - no one else's.
When our mother said don't touch the hotplate - she meant don't touch the hotplate - it will burn.

Sure it was our fault we lost, but if we had played as well over the game as the Welsh had, we still would have lost, because this referee is clearly biased against us. I hope there is an official complaint into his handling of our games. Even if we had won I'd be complaining about him. It is disgusting to see.

If you throw a forward pass in the game there is one of two things that will happen:
1. You have yellow on your back it will rightly be called back and a scrum packed down
2. You have red on your back it will be ignored (there were at least 3 in the first half hour)

If you commit a ruck indiscretion while the opposition is on attack about 10m our from the tryline:
1. You have yellow on your back you will get a yellow card (despite no previous warnings)
2. You have red and a no 7 you are clearly allowed to come in from the side and not be penalised

If you have red - you are allowed to come in from the side, you are allowed to obstruct, you are allowed do just about what ever the fuck you want and the stinking cheating referee will let you get away with it.

I'm a bit angry about it.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Sorry Scotty all my symphathy. Our captain werent even allowed to speak to the ref. Cant understand your griefs after getting use to Saffer refs in the previous matches.

Dont misunderstand me but I dont balme the ref usually when I looses but the NH lot is just crap when it come to the most important ingredient for a decent ref. Myself call it man management, I rate SA Mark Lawrense top notch in this department, may make a mistake or two but at least look like enjoying the game like the players with his smile. That school teacher lot , well they dont have a cooken clue.
 
R

rugbywhisperer

Guest
Scotty, I agree, there were some terrible misjudgements in decisions.
I wouldn't go so far as to call him biassed or even a cheat but it can certainly happen.
Like J'N I would love to see the referee assessment but that ain't gonna happen.
The NH controlled IRD will wipe any discussion under the carpet and it will be business as usual.

What we have to do is to refine our game to the extent that a referee cannot make a negative judgement - ie: discipline and skills.
I don't care of McCaw never gets pinged, he is invisible to referees. and that is what we must become - that is, they don't see us do anything wrong.

Again, at the end of the day 2 decisions cost us points. Also our own ill discipline cost us the game.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I wouldn't have called him biased if it had only happened in one game. But for two games in a row? And particularly since we haven't had this issue with other referees? Something stinks.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
Watched my replay last night, what a great game of rugby. My observations:

1. Wales: congratulations, a well deserved victory. It warmed my heart to watch a team play positive rugby, using the width of the field and showing superb skills in the tackle and breakdown. The Welsh offloading in traffic was delightful. The whole Welsh team played a fast, up-tempo game which was a joy to watch. It's no co-incidence both teams are coached by Kiwis who encouraged their charges to be positive and go for victory. This Welsh team reminds me of England in 2003 when they came to NZ and Oz and beat us both with their wonderful offloading in the tackle at speed. At about the 25 minute mark I remarked (to myself) "this is a great game of rugby". And then the fool of a ref intervened and carded Moore!

2. Australia: close but no cigar. To have won this match would've resulted in an injustice to Wales. Although we got close there were many flaws in our performance. Starting with our aimless kicking, or as NtA calls it, "kick 'n' hope". If we're going to persist with this kicking for position strategy, especially return kicks, we have to develop tactics to make sure play restarts where the ball lands. The French showed us how as they did this very well last week. Note please, Mr Deans. When the game was there to play for in the last 15 minutes we reverted to type and starting hanging off rucks and mauls and stopped chasing kicks. During this period the attempts to get over the line were disappointing: constant forwards barges are easy to defend against and always run the risk of something going wrong. And something did. It's hard to digest the (supposed) best exponents of back play in the rugby universe didn't try to get the ball over the line via the backs during this period of pressure and position. When Oz did chance their arm through the backs, albeit in the 78th minute, IT WORKED.

I've remarked elsewhere the dismissal of Muggleton looked like a mistake as the Wobblies leaked far too many tries in the early and TriNations tests. Our defence since the Macqueen era has been the constant rock of Oz rugby, and to see it missing was disturbing. But praise where praise is due, and it seems Deans has imposed his pattern of defence on this Australian team and it's starting to show. Our defence against England was magnificent. It was also very good in the first half against Wales when they had 80% of the pill and looked like running amok. I can see them running riot against other 6N teams next year with a plethora of tries. The Welsh defence was also very good: we found it very difficult to get over the advantage line.

There were other parts of our game which need improvement. Mitchell and Ioane let too many high balls bounce early in the game, unforgiveable. Especially as they were aware the ground would be slippery. This is the sort of thing boys playing in the local under 11s learn: never let a rugby ball bounce if you can avoid it. We also need to do work on our counter-rucking and a lot of work on our offloading skills in the tackle.

One of the things I've noticed about Australian rugby the last few years is the deterioration of our backline play. How many times has an Australian team got the ball to the outside backs while getting over the advantage line? Too few. There's far too much bash 'n barge with the pill dying with the ball carrier. The league converts are especially guilty of this; I noticed Tuqiri passed once on Saturday night and I don't recall Cross passing at all. They mostly die with the pill in any game they play. Together with these two, Oz backs seem to have lost the ability to put together an ensemble movement, keeping the ball alive while progressing up the field. Super 14 coaches please note.

3. Australia's halves: Burgess played much better now he's in full health. We could safely presume Deans gave him some special attention during training this week, and it showed. Giteau gave him clear calls where and when he wanted the ball and Burgess delivered with crisp passes in front of the ball receiver. Giteau had plenty of time to do his thing and directed traffic well.

4. Scrum: a pass only. Although we weren't embarrassed, we didn't work out the ref and adjust accordingly. One thing I noticed Oz scrums do too often is withdraw from the prepared position for no apparent reason and then take a long time to reform. Cannon did this a lot and Moore seems to've caught the disease. We always seem to get ready to crouch after our opponents, as if we don't want to do it; this must be bloody annoying for international referees. Having been a back the dark arts of the front row remain a mystery to me; I can only go on what I see.

5. The referee (and his two mates): where do I start? The first scrum was called up although the ball was progressing nicely out the Welsh side, as Lewis was unhappy with the method of touching! He addressed his remarks to both props, BUT LOOKED AT BAXTER ONLY! This didn't look good for the rest of the match, and so it proved. A few incidents:
i. Moore's yellow card. Moore was stuck on the bottom of the ruck and couldn't move; a Welsh player joined the tackle immediately after Moore and jammed him in. Moore didn't attempt to seal the ball off, in fact it was behind his back on the Welsh side available to play. But, more importantly, as Lewis blew his whistle the Welsh half back had his hands on the ball pulling it out. Nothing Moore had done had in any way affected Wales' ability to play the ball.
ii. The penalty awarded to Oz when the Welsh 5 grabbed Burgess at the 45:35 mark was for as cynical an offence as I've seen. If that didn't deserve a yellow card, what does? This is why the SH want free kicks allied with a stricter use of cards. This blatant cheating would be punished by a try plus more with the opposition down a player. And the NH talk about a "cheats' charter"!
iii. LG pointed out a technical penalty awarded in the Poms/Bokke match last week: a player fell on a ball emerging from a ruck. The relevant law is 16.4(e). At the 60:30 mark the ball squirted out of a ruck and the Welsh 7 fell on it a moment before Tuqiri would've picked it up; note Tuqiri was on his feet. An obscure law, but it's in the book, and, more importantly, the Welsh player denied Tuqiri the opportunity to play the ball on his feet, one of the most important tenets of rugby.
iv. Tackle on Ioane late in the game. There were three penalties here: Ioane was tackled in the air, Law 10.4(e), followed by the Welsh winger joining the tackle in front of the tackler, Law 15.6(c), followed by the Oz player falling on the ball, Law 15.6(a). In that order. Whenever a player attempts to take a ball in the air alarm bells should start ringing for the officials. How the TJ on that side missed the tackle on Ioane I don't know.

There were numerous incidents of offside Welsh players and forward passes during the match which went unpunished. The new regime in world rugby supposedly calls the two blokes on the touch lines "assistant referees". What the fuck were those two doing? Avoiding paying for a ticket? It's one thing soccer do well: the ARs rule on offside as they look straight across the front of play and raise their flag if necessary. Soccer ARs also rule on foul play close to them if the referee misses it; no questions asked, they stick their flag out and the kick is awarded immediately. As I'm a Level 2 TJ I can tell you it's bloody easy to stand on the line of offside and rule accordingly. Those two turds would've been wired up to talk to Lewis, were their batteries flat? Incompetence personified all round.

To summarise. After 4 minutes I had a very uneasy feeling about this game: Mitchell didn't catch a kick and immediately knocked on, our captain went off and then Wales scored a wonderful try. Australia have been in a position to win quite a few tests recently, but haven't. The tests against the ABs in Auckland last year and in Brisbane and Hong Kong this year come to mind. As with this test against Wales we got tantalisingly close and think about a bounced ball or a dropped pass or a ref's decision and we could've/would've won. But a different result in any of those tests would've left us in a fool's paradise as, truthfully, we weren't good enough. We need to improve our skills in the tackle, our kicking game needs a major overhaul, our backs should introduce themselves to each other and our scrum must get better. The Oz Super teams need to develop their set pieces and all find a THP, or two. We need one of the power houses of Oz rugby, Queensland, to get its house in order and start contributing more. We need the Brumbies to move on from the Jones and Gregan era and develop their forwards. We need the Force to continue improving. And we need the Tahs to develop a hard Crusaders' type edge to the overflowing talent at their disposal.

End of report.
 
R

rugbywhisperer

Guest
Good report Lindommer.
I would still love to see the referee and AR assessment - it ain't ever going to happen but it would be interesting. You can bet that is one report that will never see the light of day.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
We need to improve our skills in the tackle, our kicking game needs a major overhaul, our backs should introduce themselves to each other and our scrum must get better. The Oz Super teams need to develop their set pieces and all find a THP, or two. We need one of the power houses of Oz rugby, Queensland, to get its house in order and start contributing more. We need the Brumbies to move on from the Jones and Gregan era and develop their forwards. We need the Force to continue improving. And we need the Tahs to develop a hard Crusaders' type edge to the overflowing talent at their disposal.

Can't argue with anything there, Lindomer.

I think our long kicking game has improved but the pointless bombing is, well pointless. The forwards and scrum are starting to go forwards, but the counter ruck and ruck defense still has a long way to go. The biggest disappointment for me (and I suspect for many others) is the backline play going backwards at a fast rate. They really don't look like they could even string a simple move together - and it isn't like we are lacking in talent - Giteau, Mortlock and Tuqiri have all been considered world XV prospects at sometime or another.

There were too many times in the game against Wales where Giteau tried to punch through a wall of players, and Cooper did it later on as well. What is wrong with using your outside men, and the width of the field! I can't recall one time all tour where a winger has got the ball on the end of a backline move, the only times they get to touch it is when there an opposition kick, or they come infield.
 
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