ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[behindthescenes]

A lot of the Rugby boys at GPS schools only play Rugby by the time they reach 1stXV level, so I'm not sure it's a power struggle in terms of their availability to play term 1 sport. If these schools genuinely thought that the JGC would make them "fitter, more skilful and harder" then wouldn't they be encouraging and pushing their boys to get involved in the program...??

You have to realise that the human resources and facilities at a lot of Rugby schools in Australia are close to that of a professional team. The highest paid coaches outside of Super Rugby are in these schools, hence the quality on offer. The reason why many schools are choosing not to send their elite players is because they'd prefer to run their own pre-seasons so they know they're getting the highest quality preparation.

The Junior Gold Cup is a terrific opportunity for State School and regional boys to play and train at a higher level than their club. It won't become the only pathway though, the ARU don't have enough money at present to create a proper high performance program to compete with what the schools are doing.

 

[Silverado]

Very true Behind. That's why I said that it is a strange age group to target. Rightly or wrongly a boy on a scholarship must abide by the schools decision because ultimately the school pays for their tuition and the coaching/programme is far superior to what we can offer in our area. Let the boys finish school rugby then target the 18-20 year olds. I can't see the JGC being the only pathway at this age group in the near future. Perhaps scrapping the u16 National champs in favour of an u16 JGC might work?


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[knock on]

there are no shortage of gps boys playing jgc in fact if you run your eye over the teams some of the best u16 gps players are involved. i think gps is a bit precious and protecting their patch (and revenue stream!), yes there is good training and facilities but i love seeing another pathway it won't hurt gps to get a bit of a prod and this is from someone who has and has had boys at gps schools playing at a high grade. agree that there is a need to follow up with 18-20 year olds.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

There's no doubt that many GPS kids in u17 are not in JGC. It's not hard to see why.
If you are the Director of Rugby bring paid big bucks - as silverado says more than anyone but s15 & above - plus you have money tied up in facilities and support staff it looks incongruous to admit that an external provider can do the job at no cost to the school.
That's no way to build and maintain an empire!
And so the fractured and incomprehensible junior rugby structure in this country is perpetuated, if not worsened by the power of a few schools.

 

[fireball]

Yes it is a mess but I know a number of very talented gps boys who are making the most of what is on offer. Participating in jgc, training already several times a week in their schools elte program and doing extra sessions on their own. This is how the cream rises to the top through sheer hard work and grabbing every opportunity. The best pathway is the one you make yourself.

 

[Joe King]

there are no shortage of gps boys playing jgc in fact if you run your eye over the teams some of the best u16 gps players are involved. i think gps is a bit precious and protecting their patch (and revenue stream!), yes there is good training and facilities but i love seeing another pathway it won't hurt gps to get a bit of a prod and this is from someone who has and has had boys at gps schools playing at a high grade. agree that there is a need to follow up with 18-20 year olds.

This from the SMH:

"Pulver said the ARU wanted also to develop a national under-20 program to complement the under-15 and under-17 Gold Cup levels and school competitions. From there, players would progress to club rugby and through to the national competition system, where they would gain experience alongside and against state level players."

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...competition-20131210-2z2xq.html#ixzz2n8epV4IA

 

[Gary Owen III]

Yes it is a mess but I know a number of very talented gps boys who are making the most of what is on offer. Participating in jgc, training already several times a week in their schools elte program and doing extra sessions on their own. This is how the cream rises to the top through sheer hard work and grabbing every opportunity. The best pathway is the one you make yourself.

The JGC may or may not become the "main" pathway moving forward but as it is not even halfway through its first season then I'd suggest it is too early to tell how it will develop as such.

And I would be surprised if schools gave any ground without a fight.

I too have heard of at least one GPS school that has discouraged participation in favour of their own pre-season program. I have been told that at least one lad from this school whose name still made a JGC team list wont be attending.

And another GPS school is already making sounds that it will not be compromising and making it difficult for their students to get to JGC trainings. When the time comes next year for players to ideally meet their expected requirements re attendance to trainings, this will become a real issue. Let alone the fact that some games are scheduled for weekdays and what happens then when the school wont allow them get away early enough to make a gametime.

In saying all that i have also heard talk of players from this years U16 NSW and SJRU teams that initially decided not to participate have now put up their hands to be involved - maybe they can fill the voids for some of these players that are not going to take their spots? The point being maybe they are now viewing this a a more important pipeline moving forward?

 

[forwards4ever]

Yes it is a mess but I know a number of very talented gps boys who are making the most of what is on offer. Participating in jgc, training already several times a week in their schools elte program and doing extra sessions on their own. This is how the cream rises to the top through sheer hard work and grabbing every opportunity. The best pathway is the one you make yourself.

I would love to see some research done on how many of these "very talented gps"1st XV boys go on to play club rugby! It seems from watching colts, that a great many of them have had enough & don't go onto play club.
Only a tiny percentage can go onto super rugby, and the more time spent training frenetically for school the more likely they are to drop rugby completely when school finishes.

 

[fireball]

The research you need is easy to find in fact right here on this forum. Check out the thread about where the class of 2013 is going next year and you will find most are going to club rugby with a few others to league. As for the over-training that is what separates the men from the boys. The cream rises .

 

[I like to watch]

I would love to see some research done on how many of these "very talented gps"1st XV boys go on to play club rugby! It seems from watching colts, that a great many of them have had enough & don't go onto play club.
Only a tiny percentage can go onto super rugby, and the more time spent training frenetically for school the more likely they are to drop rugby completely when school finishes.

Most go on to play colts.
Many cannot cope with being a small fish in a big pond.

 

[Boof]

[As for the over-training that is what separates the men from the boys. The cream rises .[/quote]

Very true, it is not natural born talent that separates the average club player from boys in various rep sides. It is commitment and consistency to training. Practice, practice,practice is what takes, it's not as if they don't enjoy it and if they don't enjoy themselves they will soon want to do something else. That's as along as the parents let them make up their own mind !

 

[S'UP]

[As for the over-training that is what separates the men from the boys. The cream rises .

Very true, it is not natural born talent that separates the average club player from boys in various rep sides. It is commitment and consistency to training. Practice, practice,practice is what takes, it's not as if they don't enjoy it and if they don't enjoy themselves they will soon want to do something else. That's as along as the parents let them make up their own mind ![/quote]
So the cream doesn't rise to the top it's only the ones who work hard? I would disagree find me a GPS player who is allowed to choose what training he does, they are chosen as naturally gifted players and made to train, they become better footballers and when they leave school they are over it and there lies the problem. Burn out at 17.

 

[Boof]

I d

Very true, it is not natural born talent that separates the average club player from boys in various rep sides. It is commitment and consistency to training. Practice, practice,practice is what takes, it's not as if they don't enjoy it and if they don't enjoy themselves they will soon want to do something else. That's as along as the parents let them make up their own mind !

So the cream doesn't rise to the top it's only the ones who work hard? I would disagree find me a GPS player who is allowed to choose what training he does, they are chosen as naturally gifted players and made to train, they become better footballers and when they leave school they are over it and there lies the problem. Burn out at 17.[/quote]


I didn't say they could choose to train when they want, I meant the " naturally gifted " players can choose to follow a rep pathway or not. If they do not want to commit to the training schedule don't participate. But if you do chooses to participate in any of these rep programs you must be prepared to commit and work hard, even the naturally gifted players. That's what it takes for the cream to rise and I don't believe it is only the naturally gifted players rising, every team needs workers.

 

[fireball]

If a kid is burnt out at 17 from over training then they are clearly in the wrong caper. Give me a break! Training doesn't get easier ask any athlete and those that fall by the wayside weren't cut our for it. Show me anyone who is successful in anything who doesn't work harder than everyone else and enjoy doing it. Skill and talent is a given but guts and dedication does the rest. I've told my son if at any stage he wants to stop then by all means but until then it is go hard or go home.

 

[Boof]

Fireball your on the money, I have told my boys the same thing and it does not only apply to rugby. School, work sport it all takes the same thing to succeed. I have a son going into 17s and I have seen a few boys now drop out but NONE have been due to burn out more like lack of commitment, can't be bothered anymore, girls, jobs or the upcoming HSC. Has anyone ever thought these training schedules act as a filter to get the most talented and committed only players through the system. No guts no glory and if you failed while trying, you haven't failed.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Fireball your on the money, I have told my boys the same thing and it does not only apply to rugby. School, work sport it all takes the same thing to succeed. I have a son going into 17s and I have seen a few boys now drop out but NONE have been due to burn out more like lack of commitment, can't be bothered anymore, girls, jobs or the upcoming HSC. Has anyone ever thought these training schedules act as a filter to get the most talented and committed only players through the system. No guts no glory and if you failed while trying, you haven't failed.

NO.
A good reason no one has thought that is the lack of transfer of outstanding players from under 18 to senior rugby.
The lack of transfer is the reason the base needs to be as broad as possible for as long as possible: for whatever reason childhood success, even up to playing oz schools, is a very poor predictor of senior success on average.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Never underestimate the power of the I'm alright Jack Sydnrome (IAJ).

While my boy is "on the inside", on the pathway, one of the chosen ones, the annointed future Rugby God, etc, why should I/we/he care about the size of the base of the pyramid?

The rest of you just need to HTFU.

The IAJ* Syndrome is rather dangerous when it blends in with the WII-FM** complex.
The broader the pyramid, the harder it will be for my boy curerntly in the elite development programme to stay there and stave off all the competition for his rightful slot in the Wobs.

Why should I care about promoting an environment that will result in a situation where my boy may not progress to his rightful place? I will miss all the vainglory if my boy doesn't make it. In reality I don't really care how the Wobs go, provided my boy is there! If he gets there, it will all be the Coaches fault if they don't bring Bill home every 4 years.



* IAJ = I'm Alright Jack
** WII-FM = What's In It For Me.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Never underestimate the power of the I'm alright Jack Sydnrome (IAJ).

While my boy is "on the inside", on the pathway, one of the chosen ones, the annointed future Rugby God, etc, why should I/we/he care about the size of the base of the pyramid?

The rest of you just need to HTFU.

The IAJ* Syndrome is rather dangerous when it blends in with the WII-FM** complex.
The broader the pyramid, the harder it will be for my boy curerntly in the elite development programme to stay there and stave off all the competition for his rightful slot in the Wobs.

Why should I care about promoting an environment that will result in a situation where my boy may not progress to his rightful place? I will miss all the vainglory if my boy doesn't make it. In reality I don't really care how the Wobs go, provided my boy is there! If he gets there, it will all be the Coaches fault if they don't bring Bill home every 4 years.



* IAJ = I'm Alright Jack
** WII-FM = What's In It For Me.

My view is that when my sons get to the top I want more, better players with them so they can win the Bledisloe, RWC, Cook Cup, Mandela Trophy, Lansdowne Cup and the others whose names I cant remember - thats when I'll be alright jack!

 

[Boof]

Just for the record my boys are not elite GPS players or Gods gift to rugby or even at the top of the tree. they both coach junior teams and are involved in our club in a large way. Both of us as parents have been committee members of one of the largest country clubs in the state for almost 10 years. Giving up pretty much every weekend through out the winter in that time and countless hours in the off season getting ready so every kid in the club will be good to go come rugby season.We are far from your so called IAJ or anything else' you want to label someone with after reading a few sentences on an anonymous forum.
We have certainly given plenty to the development and growth of rugby in our area for any boy that wanted to play. Oh and as far as what's in it for me, nothing except the joy of seeing boys on the field dreaming of a grade jumper playing for our club. I was expressing my opinion in a forum funnily enough designed just for that, I did not label anyone or make assumptions. If you don't like it well it's a free country.

This thread is supposed to be about JGC which has been a fantastic program so far. I follow the thread to see how the program as a whole is going not to be run down when my opinion doesn't suit.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

One person's lack of commitment is another's burn out.
It is pejorative to label someone who decides to pursue other things as suffering from a lack of commitment.
Its my experience that lack of commitment often follows over commitment.