ARU take over the Western Force.

[Quick Hands]

Did the Tahs have the same recruitment/retention problems that the Force are having when Foley was coaching NSW?

Michael Foley coached the Waratahs in 2012.

The following players left at the end of that season:
Josh Mann-Rae
Dean Mumm
Daniel Vickerman
Jono Jenkins
Rocky Elsom
Daniel Halangahu

There were others, but they were part of the EPS.

Two players were signed from other super teams for 2013

Michael Hooper
Cam Crawford

 

[Quick Hands]

Go back and read what I posted.

I did just that>

My original post #171 was:

The fringe players who can't get a super deal aren't on twice the money. A player from Manly went a couple of years ago on a contract way less than the minimum super rugby contract. He got a contract upgrade after a season - but that wasn't guaranteed. Simple fact is that he went because he couldn't get a super rugby contract in Australia - anywhere - including Perth.​

​

The established players who go to France get the big dollars (Euros), but the guys who have never had a super deal don't - they have to take a chance, back their ability and hope they make it.​

​

The idea that a Sydney or Brisbane club player could go to France and earn twice the money of a super rugby player, without ever having earnt a permanent super rugby contract is a fiction.​

To which you replied #173:​

Malone, Parkes and Donnelly spring to mind straight up. There are others if I could be bothered researching.​

​

 

[Highlander35]

That ain't saying much.

That's unfair, 1800 points for 3 Pro12 clubs over 8 or 9 seasons, and more than 250 international points despite being sguck behind the great Chris Patterson in the kicking duties for all but one season of his career.

 

[TOCC]

But then it has all gone sour. Mainly due to the drop-off in sponsorship revenue and the downturn of the WA economy, as well as a few years of bad coaching, player losses, dud signings etc.
.

A lot gets blamed on the mining downturn, but the RugbyWA haven't posted a profit since 2008 even during the peak mining boom in 2009-2012. Rugby WA posted revenue of $22million in 2008 and has declined since then and sat around $16-$17million since 2009.

2009: ($748k)
2010: ($895k)
2011: ($823k)
2012: ($528k)
2013: ($857k)
2014: ($649k)

At the end of 2014 they had net liabilities of $2.5million and eroded their cash reserves from $8million in 2008 to $500k in 2014.

 

[kiap]

That's unfair, 1800 points for 3 Pro12 clubs over 8 or 9 seasons, and more than 250 international points despite being sguck behind the great Chris Patterson in the kicking duties for all but one season of his career.

Knew that would get a nibble from you.

The bloke is an infinitely better player than I could pretend to be. But he was never really 'one that got away' from Australian rugby.

 

[barbarian]

A lot gets blamed on the mining downturn, but the RugbyWA haven't posted a profit since 2008 even during the peak mining boom in 2009-2012.

OK so maybe not quite 2010, but still my point that their early seasons were successful still stands.

It's why I think Harris is being a bit revisionist when he says that we always should have had the team in W Syd as opposed to WA. At the time the vast majority of people were pro-Force, and any opposition to the venture came from people who thought Melbourne was a better alternative.

Really the idea of a team in W Syd has only been seriously discussed for a couple of months now, it's not like it's been bubbling in the background since 2007 (and I am not suggesting you were saying this).
.

 

[Highlander35]

Knew that would get a nibble from you.

The bloke is an infinitely better player than I could pretend to be. But he was never really 'one that got away' from Australian rugby.

No, he's not one that got away, but I reckon he'd have been a good Super Rugby player, albeit not in the mold you guys would like.

 

[Gnostic]

That ain't saying much.





Without wanting to be rude, I don't think you know what you're talking about.



Sure, workers will bugger off when job vacancies go down, same as anywhere.



But WA's population has DOUBLED in 40 years. Mining booms don't last that long; a decade is good going. A big chunk of that increase is interstate migration.



New South Wales, by contrast, has increased 45% in the last four decades.

SO you compare a fledgling region's growth to a mature economy with shrinking manufacturing and regional areas. Sure there is going to be massive growth in that time, and from a low base. Yes my experience is limited but directly relevant in that none of those I know that have lived and worked in WA have/will remain there when the big dollars dry up. There is no motivator for them.

That said in a professional rugby environment what is the motivator to travel to WA if the dollars are equivalent or a bit less and the development opportunities less.

My point is that I do not believe that after 10 years the Force has made any growth at all and is not sustainable, but then I am coming to the conclusion about the whole structure of Australian Rugby and not just the Force.

It is a great pity as I have said many times the ground swell of support and growth in the game from 1991 to 2000 was amazing. The advent of professionalism in 1995-1996 gave hope that we could finally hold off the constant poaching from league with the last big names I remember going that way being Junee, Jorgensen and Morgan.

20 years down the track so much has been squandered, so much opportunity lost, much of it due to nepotism and the old boys network. How long can it continue.

As for my examples of Malone, Parkes and Donnelly they stand in that they were not wanted by any Super side (Donnelly playing a few games over a few seasons), and did not get the development opportunities they required in Australia in a supposedly professional environment. They went overseas in Malone's case to a 2nd division side and came to dominate those compititions. Parkes becoming a test player in the process. Those examples provide indisputable evidence of the lack of development opportunities that our current system provides.

 

[Gnostic]

No, he's not one that got away, but I reckon he'd have been a good Super Rugby player, albeit not in the mold you guys would like.

My argument has always been that with the risk averse game plan of the Foley/Hickey/Link Malone or Parkes would have been a far better 10 options than any of the other "running" 10s they tried and failed. Another example of divided and unformed strategies couple with lack of player development.

 

[Boomer]

SO you compare a fledgling region's growth to a mature economy with shrinking manufacturing and regional areas. Sure there is going to be massive growth in that time, and from a low base.

I think the point was made that you know very little about the situation on the ground - your comment here proves it.

 

[Caputo]

As for my examples of Malone, Parkes and Donnelly they stand in that they were not wanted by any Super side (Donnelly playing a few games over a few seasons), and did not get the development opportunities they required in Australia in a supposedly professional environment. They went overseas in Malone's case to a 2nd division side and came to dominate those compititions. Parkes becoming a test player in the process. Those examples provide indisputable evidence of the lack of development opportunities that our current system provides.

I believe we have verged off topic from Western Force. But my two cents worth is that the development is here with the NRC. Those three might not have been every coaches style. Like the knock on Hugh Roach. Others were Brock James and James Hilgendorf. Sometimes it could be size in the different Half Backs. The extra forward.

 

[Gnostic]

I think the point was made that you know very little about the situation on the ground - your comment here proves it.

How so? The population has grown massively in the period quoted. Have the Force grown in that time or regressed to a hard core and stagnated. Is it sustainable?

Like I said my comment may be ill informed from your POV, but from where I am on the East coast with relatives and neighbours doing the mining jobs and FIFO in WA for that time they saw nothing to keep them in the state. Every single one. Is it a stretch to take that to a Rugby situation and when the borderline player such as a Malone or Parkes could go to Perth and be "coached by a Foley, Graham or Mitchell or go to Europe and possibly make the step up to be a full time pro player and reach their potential?

There are a number of factors in play in that decision:-
1) Lifestyle
2) Coahcing/development
3) earning potential over time if development steps made
4) (and a point that hasn't been discussed) the length of the club seasons. The Super Season and the NRC are not competitions that can really develop players. They are just too quick and by round 4 or 5 the finals are being decided many years. How many coaches are going to take a punt? Hence we get the "safe" rugby of Foley. The Euro seasons are much longer and improvements can be bedded in so the player gets to prove their value.

 

[Forcefield]

Michael Foley coached the Waratahs in 2012.

The following players left at the end of that season:
Josh Mann-Rae
Dean Mumm
Daniel Vickerman
Jono Jenkins
Rocky Elsom
Daniel Halangahu

There were others, but they were part of the EPS.

Two players were signed from other super teams for 2013

Michael Hooper
Cam Crawford

I don't know if that is a completely fair comparison. Of those guys the only ones who were worth much were Dean Mumm, Vickerman and Elsom- maybe Halangahu. Vickerman retired due to injury- that is not a recruitment/retention issue. Elsom was also an injury crock but had only come back to Aus to compete in the RWC. Dean Mumm had fallen out of Wallaby selection frame (good one him for putting himself back in there).

 

[Brumby Runner]

I don't know if that is a completely fair comparison. Of those guys the only ones who were worth much were Dean Mumm, Vickerman and Elsom- maybe Halangahu. Vickerman retired due to injury- that is not a recruitment/retention issue. Elsom was also an injury crock but had only come back to Aus to compete in the RWC. Dean Mumm had fallen out of Wallaby selection frame (good one him for putting himself back in there).

What, no recognition of Josh Mann-Rea's rekindled career?

 

[Gnostic]

I don't know if that is a completely fair comparison. Of those guys the only ones who were worth much were Dean Mumm, Vickerman and Elsom- maybe Halangahu. Vickerman retired due to injury- that is not a recruitment/retention issue. Elsom was also an injury crock but had only come back to Aus to compete in the RWC. Dean Mumm had fallen out of Wallaby selection frame (good one him for putting himself back in there).

It is however a good indicator of how crap the recruitment was, Vickerman recruited on name and reputation played a few minutes. Elsom a mercenary who also played little and performed little. As BR said Mann-Rae was always a reliable reserve Hooker, and given how injury prone the suicidal tackling of TPN makes him he would have got a hell of a lot of game time at the Tahs.

 

[Quick Hands]

As for my examples of Malone, Parkes and Donnelly they stand in that they were not wanted by any Super side (Donnelly playing a few games over a few seasons), and did not get the development opportunities they required in Australia in a supposedly professional environment. They went overseas in Malone's case to a 2nd division side and came to dominate those compititions. Parkes becoming a test player in the process. Those examples provide indisputable evidence of the lack of development opportunities that our current system provides.

Which was the point that I was making in my original post.

I agree with you views on the lack of player development and opportunities.

 

[Quick Hands]

Some intersting results in the JGC finals:

15s - WA 24 def ACT 14

17s - Western Sydney 38 def Brisbane 3

 

[Forcefield]

It is however a good indicator of how crap the recruitment was, Vickerman recruited on name and reputation played a few minutes. Elsom a mercenary who also played little and performed little. As BR said Mann-Rae was always a reliable reserve Hooker, and given how injury prone the suicidal tackling of TPN makes him he would have got a hell of a lot of game time at the Tahs.

I dont know if that is fair either. Do we know how much input Foley had in those selections?

John Ulugia and Damien Fitzpatrick had more potential as hookers in my opinion.

I dont mean to come across as a Foley apologist but I think it is a bit harsh.

 

[Quick Hands]

I dont know if that is fair either. Do we know how much input Foley had in those selections?

I dont mean to come across as a Foley apologist but I think it is a bit harsh.

Foley had a big hand in signings. In fact if you remember back, he filled the roster bar one position and then left for the Force and left Cheika with a squad that he didn't have any input into.

 

[brokendown]

and RG who secretly signed a deal with the Reds was still in charge of recruiting for the force for months after