Aussie Player Exodus

[MACCA]

I think Deegan is an excellent premier rugby player but marginal at Super Rugby level. I know the Aus franchises are scratching for No 10s but I don't think Deegan was the answer to any of the problems. Good luck to him o/s though.

Good reasoning and sentiment however feel that guys like Deegan may develop with time. Our development pathways seem to be after the next big thing or a foreign development player without letting players spend some time in senior rugby to grow into it.
I recall watching Horwitz in his first year in grade was rubbish, won the Catchpole medal next year and this year improved again. He needed time to adjust.
I reckon Deegan outplayed Mack Mason in the SS and might have blossomed if given more time.



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[KevinO]

Harley Fox to Connacht, another young player with promise gone.

 

[TOCC]

And McMahon just posted on social media, suggesting he is heading off to France not Japan.. which means another lost as well

 

[Ruggo]

Two issues here.

Money hungry players can nick off. With limited resources, there is not much that can be done about that.

The bigger issue is access to opportunity for players willing to stay and earn their stripes and strive to reach the top (Wallaby Jersey). These are the players that have the attitude to build up rugby in Australia again. The dispersal of that talent needs serious reform. Leaving it to the market has simply not worked.

The first step is to re-incentivize players to stay. Do away with the 60 cap exemption for Wallaby selection rubbish. If you are not playing your rugby in Australia, you simply are of no value to rugby in Australia.

The second is that if you are a Wallaby eligible player returning from overseas returning to play in Australia, you should not be Wallaby eligible until you have played a season of professional rugby in Australia.

The significant lapse of the rugby culture in Australia will not be an overnight fix but the end result is you will have players playing for the right reasons in Australia. Rebuilding the strength in Australian rugby will bring the by-product of increased earnings.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Ruggo - a thousand likes. Want to play for the Wallabies, then prove your worth over at least a season in Super Rugby before becoming eligible.

I'd also like to see the reintroduction of Australia A to provide opportunity for the likes of Fox and Debreczini and all the other younger talented (Mcintyre) players to stay here and play at a higher level for some extra coin.

 

[TOCC]

Yeah the 60 rule cap is a joke, I like Genia, but hate that he waltzs back Into the Wallabies every few months..

Having 2 average kiwi 5/8s starting in our Super Rugby teams is an absolute waste of resources

 

[Forcefield]

Personally, I think its a non issue. You are talking about two different thinks. 1. Long term Wallabies playing both overseas and in Australia (of which we have just one). 2. Young players leaving before they really fulfill their potential.

Problem 2 is the biggest issue. You could name a 23 of young fellas who leave before 25 who could become Wallabies at the drop of a hat. I think there are a few components to this. Firstly, I feel like we are bringing these young fellas into Super sides too young. They are becoming impatient and seeking more opportunities to prove themselves. Secondly, they need a good 2nd tier comp for regular game time (tick with the NRC). Thirdly, we are no doing a good enough job of bringing back those guys who have spent a few seasons overseas. It's understandable that young guys want to go overseas and experience the world- most do at that age. Where is the concerted effort to bring back guys like Meakes, DHP, etc? Why is noone moving heaven and earth for Sam Greene or Zafk Holmes while we have multiple 10s who are not Aussie qualified (and not that good either). Why don't we see the writing on the wall and negotiate "loan" arrangements where Harley Fox, say, goes off for X months and is paid for by the new club but remains contracted with the Rebels.

 

[Killer]

Personally, I think its a non issue. You are talking about two different thinks. 1. Long term Wallabies playing both overseas and in Australia (of which we have just one). 2. Young players leaving before they really fulfill their potential.

Problem 2 is the biggest issue. You could name a 23 of young fellas who leave before 25 who could become Wallabies at the drop of a hat. I think there are a few components to this. Firstly, I feel like we are bringing these young fellas into Super sides too young. They are becoming impatient and seeking more opportunities to prove themselves. Secondly, they need a good 2nd tier comp for regular game time (tick with the NRC). Thirdly, we are no doing a good enough job of bringing back those guys who have spent a few seasons overseas. It's understandable that young guys want to go overseas and experience the world- most do at that age. Where is the concerted effort to bring back guys like Meakes, DHP, etc? Why is noone moving heaven and earth for Sam Greene or Zafk Holmes while we have multiple 10s who are not Aussie qualified (and not that good either). Why don't we see the writing on the wall and negotiate "loan" arrangements where Harley Fox, say, goes off for X months and is paid for by the new club but remains contracted with the Rebels.

imo people running Aus rugby are dickheads when it comes to creating a strong culture.
Simply reward good form and stop recruiting imports. The sooner they introduce that 5 yr rule the better.
I want guys rewarded with selection who have gone through our junior system.
How demoralising for our young guys when they see the likes of Speight coming in and taking a position they may have got. But are never given the chance to prove themselves.

 

[Ruggo]

Foreign players need to be looked at. There has to be a national interest test applied to those signings. It is not to much to ask of the Franchised to present a case to justify the recruitment on those grounds.

I would also like the ARU to explore policy options are the potential to have a draft system. there are complexities involved but it needs to be looked at. I would like to see that work done by an independent panel commissioned by the ARU formed of people with experience from other codes in such systems. The State Unions, Super Rugby Franchises be given opportunity to make submissions and present to the enquiry.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think the starting salary would need to be quite a lot higher to make a draft realistic.

 

[Killer]

Foreign players need to be looked at. There has to be a national interest test applied to those signings. It is not to much to ask of the Franchised to present a case to justify the recruitment on those grounds.

I would also like the ARU to explore policy options are the potential to have a draft system. there are complexities involved but it needs to be looked at. I would like to see that work done by an independent panel commissioned by the ARU formed of people with experience from other codes in such systems. The State Unions, Super Rugby Franchises be given opportunity to make submissions and present to the enquiry.

No disagree, imo the national team should be a gauge of our rugby system. If we are failing bc of player quality then fix it at the core not import to bandaid over the cracks.
Short term(current 2yr system) imports also destroy culture imo, culture is the key to success.
Personally I want to watch young guys who have come through our pathways, it been particularly good watching Dickie Hardwick come through and my young boys also love it, they can relate directly to it.

Edit: I'm talking the Wallabies, some foreign players in our state teams is fine, they have to play somewhere during the qualifying period

 

[Braveheart81]

Short term(current 2yr system) imports also destroy culture imo, culture is the key to success.

Really?

Amenaki Mafi was the heart and soul of the Rebels this season and arguably the best player for any Australian side this year.

Jacques Potgieter was a massive part of a great Waratahs culture in 2014 when they won the title.

I reckon on the whole, foreign players have come in and been really positive influences on team culture. They have bought in and added to what was going on.

 

[Killer]

Really?

Amenaki Mafi was the heart and soul of the Rebels this season and arguably the best player for any Australian side this year.

Jacques Potgieter was a massive part of a great Waratahs culture in 2014 when they won the title.

I reckon on the whole, foreign players have come in and been really positive influences on team culture. They have bought in and added to what was going on.

see my edit, Provincial teams it's fine within reason, my beef is the Wallabies. 5 yr qualifying period asap.

 

[Braveheart81]

see my edit, Provincial teams it's fine within reason, my beef is the Wallabies. 5 yr qualifying period asap.

That has been approved and affects anyone who hasn't started their residency qualification already but really, I find it hard to see your problem with Henry Speight.

He has emigrated to Australia, is massively popular with fans, does lots of extra stuff with fans and charity etc.

I really don't see how you can say selecting him for the Wallabies when he qualified was damaging to the culture of the team.

 

[Killer]

I think is has a massive effect on the culture. If I was a winger who missed out to another Aussie I could wear it. But someone who comes for 2yrs via NZ I would be pissed.
There are probably 10 wingers in Aus who may or may not have been good enough but I can assure you they would all be pissed off, so why not go to play in Europe.

Edit: btw I don't blame him, good luck to him, it's the system that is wrong imo.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think is has a massive effect on the culture. If I was a winger who missed out to another Aussie I could wear it. But someone who comes for 2yrs via NZ I would be pissed.
There are probably 10 wingers in Aus who may or may not have been good enough but I can assure you they would all be pissed off, so why not go to play in Europe.

It's three years currently, not two. Speight ended up doing about four years.

It's pretty lame if someone thinks they are more deserving of the spot in the team not on the basis of being a better player but because they have lived in Australia for longer.

I don't think many players think this way.

I don't think a culture that sees merit trumped by period of tenure is a good one.

 

[Slim 293]

3 years.........

But 4 for Speight.

Edit: beaten to it.

 

[Ruggo]

@ Killer, I think we are talking in the same view. For the reasons you outline I believe we need to look at foreign players and apply a national interest test. I think it is a band aid solution as you do though I get the impression you thought I was in opposite view.

Players committed to achieving the residency test should be accommodated for sure. A contract with the ARU for that required time binding them to Australian rugby and not the individual franchise.

 

[Braveheart81]

Edit: btw I don't blame him, good luck to him, it's the system that is wrong imo.

It matches a world where people move and settle in countries other than their place of birth. They do this for opportunity whether it was their parents making the choice (such as the case with Richard Hardwick) or them making the choice (as for Henry Speight).

Australia is a country of immigrants.

 

[Killer]

It's three years currently, not two. Speight ended up doing about four years.

It's pretty lame if someone thinks they are more deserving of the spot in the team not on the basis of being a better player but because they have lived in Australia for longer.

I don't think many players think this way.

I don't think a culture that sees merit trumped by period of tenure is a good one.

Not more deserving, its about getting an opportunity.
We have 2 wingers in Newsome and Verity am who imo are real goers. Granted they are green but if we allow a constant inflow of short term imports they will not even get a chance.
And thus the culture will be to just get a few super games, a bit of a reputation and then head off overseas.