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Aussie Player Exodus

Tomthumb

John Solomon (38)
Australia is producing a lot of talented players. The strength of rugby worldwide is super important for rugby in Australia because it shows talented players that there is a professional pathway.

Our biggest problem is we struggle to keep enough of them in Australia particularly those who aren't getting a lot of opportunity where they are playing but are capable of more or players just outside being core Wallabies who can earn a huge amount more overseas.
We are producing a lot of talented players? Not according to numerous people on here saying Dave Rennie just simply didn't have the cattle to win

If we have too many good players and not enough spaces, why are the Force and Rebels littered with foreign players?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
We are producing a lot of talented players? Not according to numerous people on here saying Dave Rennie just simply didn't have the cattle to win

If we have too many good players and not enough spaces, why are the Force and Rebels littered with foreign players?

Because Mack Hansen would prefer to try his luck in Ireland than play for less money for another Australian team.

Because Will Skelton would prefer to earn several hundred thousand dollars more a year playing in the UK or France than play Super Rugby and sometimes get some additional cash playing for the Wallabies.

Down to Alex Newsome playing in France vs going around again for less money for another Super Rugby team.

James Ramm playing in the UK Premiership rather than taking a backup level player contract in Super Rugby.

The Tahs have signed a 20 year old Aussie lock for next season who went to France straight out of high school and has played Top 14.

In case you haven't noticed there are a lot of Aussie players playing in Europe and Japan of varying ages and pedigrees.
 

Tomthumb

John Solomon (38)
Because Mack Hansen would prefer to try his luck in Ireland than play for less money for another Australian team.

Because Will Skelton would prefer to earn several hundred thousand dollars more a year playing in the UK or France than play Super Rugby and sometimes get some additional cash playing for the Wallabies.

Down to Alex Newsome playing in France vs going around again for less money for another Super Rugby team.

James Ramm playing in the UK Premiership rather than taking a backup level player contract in Super Rugby.

The Tahs have signed a 20 year old Aussie lock for next season who went to France straight out of high school and has played Top 14.

In case you haven't noticed there are a lot of Aussie players playing in Europe and Japan of varying ages and pedigrees.
There is no point arguing over spilt milk in regards to players that have already left

I'm asking if we are currently producing a lot of talented young players, why are we blocking their chance to play super rugby and develop by signing multiple mediocre foreign players
 

LeCheese

Jim Lenehan (48)
There is no point arguing over spilt milk in regards to players that have already left

I'm asking if we are currently producing a lot of talented young players, why are we blocking their chance to play super rugby and develop by signing multiple mediocre foreign players
Force and Rebels, as you mentioned, have done this as they haven't established pathways for young players to come through, and need to be competitive in the short term.

The thing about talented young players is that, as we've seen time and time again, throwing them in the deep end early is not always best for their development - hence why many are on development contracts with Reds, Tahs, Brums and toiling away in clubland with occasional Super exposure
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
There is no point arguing over spilt milk in regards to players that have already left

I'm asking if we are currently producing a lot of talented young players, why are we blocking their chance to play super rugby and develop by signing multiple mediocre foreign players

I don't think anyone is really being blocked. I think it is more an indication of the money available in the various locations and that it isn't a bigger drawcard for a player from the east coast to head to Perth rather than head overseas. In fact it's probably the opposite.
 

Wallaby Man

Trevor Allan (34)
There just isn’t enough games in Super Rugby to keep fringe guys interested. As much as many glorify the amateur comps we have, every single young player dreams of being on the big stage, getting paid to play for meaningful comps, been on tv and getting the opportunity to prove themselves that they can be a pro which means playing with/against pros and training like a pro. It’s deflating and feel like you are wasting time in your short career playing in them, for the established players it’s different going back to club because their career trajectory is set and it’s a nice change from the pressures.

The short number of pro games means some guys are stuck playing 10-15mins every 2nd game or even less than that, stuck behind an established player who isn’t going to give up their spot and the small amount of games means is played 90% of the time he’s available.

The third tier would help, but only if it was paid and extensively televised like in NZ and RSA.

We really need our pro franchises to be getting 25 meaningful games a year, so the wallaby guys can play 15 (+ internationals) and the up and comers the other 10.

It’ll continue to bleed until that improves.
 

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
Australia is producing a lot of talented players. The strength of rugby worldwide is super important for rugby in Australia because it shows talented players that there is a professional pathway.

Our biggest problem is we struggle to keep enough of them in Australia particularly those who aren't getting a lot of opportunity where they are playing but are capable of more or players just outside being core Wallabies who can earn a huge amount more overseas.
Is this not an argument for opening up selection?

We are currently in a weird middle-ground where we can't afford to keep a lot of our best talent but also don't let them get selected from overseas.

The Saffa contingent still seem pretty competitive in the URC despite the Springboks open selection policy. And as you say, Super Rugby will still be a key pathway to bigger contracts in Europe, Japan or the Wallabies.

Even if the the current Super Rugby teams do take a bit of a hit to competitiveness - they basically aren't competitive at the moment anyway. Except for the Bumbreeze (who don't have any fans and can't prop Super Rugby up by themselves).
 

Adam84

Phil Kearns (64)
There just isn’t enough games in Super Rugby to keep fringe guys interested. As much as many glorify the amateur comps we have, every single young player dreams of being on the big stage, getting paid to play for meaningful comps, been on tv and getting the opportunity to prove themselves that they can be a pro which means playing with/against pros and training like a pro. It’s deflating and feel like you are wasting time in your short career playing in them, for the established players it’s different going back to club because their career trajectory is set and it’s a nice change from the pressures.

I think that’s an interesting take on the issue, and probably closer to the truth than some of what has been mentioned elsewhere. A 3rd tier(or lack of) isn’t just about providing a higher level of competition, it was also to provide a platform for these guys to get regular game time and prove their worth.
 

Tomthumb

John Solomon (38)
Force and Rebels, as you mentioned, have done this as they haven't established pathways for young players to come through, and need to be competitive in the short term.

The thing about talented young players is that, as we've seen time and time again, throwing them in the deep end early is not always best for their development - hence why many are on development contracts with Reds, Tahs, Brums and toiling away in clubland with occasional Super exposure
So we pay for their development and then once they develop they go overseas? How does this help Aus Rugby?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Is this not an argument for opening up selection?

We are currently in a weird middle-ground where we can't afford to keep a lot of our best talent but also don't let them get selected from overseas.

I think a middle ground policy is still good because outside of a RWC I don't think it is viable to bring in too many outside players. They have less time to prepare for a series.

I'd be expanding it for the RWC to essentially pick who we want to pick (which would only mean 4 or 5 players max).
 

Tomthumb

John Solomon (38)
I don't think anyone is really being blocked. I think it is more an indication of the money available in the various locations and that it isn't a bigger drawcard for a player from the east coast to head to Perth rather than head overseas. In fact it's probably the opposite.
Surely their would be more money availible if mediocre overseas players like Chase Tiatia, Gareth Simpson, Sam Spink, Nikolai Foliaki, Manasa Mataele, Toni Pulu, Rupeni Mataele, Zach Kibridge, Santiago Medrano, Wilton Rebalo, Felix Kalapu, Cabous Eloff, Tim Cardall, Angelo Smith, Moses Sorovi, Stacey Illi, Monty Ioane & Ilikena Vudogo weren't signed

Unless those 18 players are playing for free, I'm struggling to understand how we can afford that many players yet cant afford to keep any good young talent in Australia
 

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
I think a middle ground policy is still good because outside of a RWC I don't think it is viable to bring in too many outside players. They have less time to prepare for a series.

I'd be expanding it for the RWC to essentially pick who we want to pick (which would only mean 4 or 5 players max).
Seems fine for Japan based players at least.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
Surely their would be more money availible if mediocre overseas players like Chase Tiatia, Gareth Simpson, Sam Spink, Nikolai Foliaki, Manasa Mataele, Toni Pulu, Rupeni Mataele, Zach Kibridge, Santiago Medrano, Wilton Rebalo, Felix Kalapu, Cabous Eloff, Tim Cardall, Angelo Smith, Moses Sorovi, Stacey Illi, Monty Ioane & Ilikena Vudogo weren't signed

Unless those 18 players are playing for free, I'm struggling to understand how we can afford that many players yet cant afford to keep any good young talent in Australia

Cabous & Angelo are effectively project players: depending on fitness of others may end up playing in the majority of remaining games this season, Cabous in particular has been one of the Rebels best performers over the previous 3 seasons.

Cardall is on an injury cover contract for Rob Leota and Matt Phillip and I would imagine be on something close to league minimum; just picking up a contract between Wasps going bust and his new NH side: in any case Angelo is getting whatever opportunity that is being suggested that him being around is preventing.

Sorovi is an Aussie still on a contract signed prior to his Fiji cap: Much like Dickie and his Namibia swap, unless you've got some serious French-esq restrictions in that contract I can't imagine there's much you can do when that happens.

Ioane was meant to be a high impact VICTORIAN signing that has been decisively underwhelming thus far.

Ili has arguably been the Rebels 3rd best player this season after Gordon and Dickie.

Ilikena Vudogo, alongside a handful of others not mentioned are neither here nor there in terms of this argument, but I'd be interested to see how many Australia are now "missing out on" comes from the squeeze on positions that happened in the couple of seasons after the dropping of the Force: Sione in particular seemed to go from being slowly built up into the Rebels side to getting very limited opportunity when the likes of Billy Meakes and DHP were added to the Rebels backline.
 

Jimmy_Crouch

Ken Catchpole (46)
We've known all these players are talented. The question is opportunity and money.

We also need to move past the thinking that players aren't interested in heading overseas for opportunities and would instead exhaust every option available to stay in Australia (i.e. Mack Hansen).
Despite having a ripper of a season Hansen (if Wallaby eligible) wouldn't make the 23.
 
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