Aussie Player Exodus

[Dave Beat]

Back to the original debate.

The ARU has three broad choices. Firstly, to pay international players a relatively low retainer, plus a per Test bonus payment. No top-ups.

Under this scenario we would be guaranteed to (a) lose star players and (b) lose more games, because the side has been weakened.

Secondly, as for the first alternative, but with top-ups. Under this alternative we would retain some players that we would have otherwise lost, and we would probably have a more successful international team.

Thirdly, as for the first alternative, but change the selection policy to allow overseas based players to continue their representative careers.

The first alternative might have some longer term benefits, if the money saved is intelligently reinvested in developing talent. However, the $64,000 question is, how long would it take, and what is the risk that a downward spiral of lower revenues cannot be halted?

The second alternative is the status quo, and the jury is out on it. St Cheika might wrought a miracle. If we can win a Bled and/or a Bill, things will change for a while. Only for a while, though, we used to win Bleds and Bills, and here we are today going downhill.

Frankly, I favour the third alternative. Damn the torpedoes! Full steam ahead! Pick the best available team.

Apart from anything else it would generate a lot more interest, with debates about the relative strengths of rugby competitions in the NH, and a lot of stuff that could become news.

Rugby news in this country has become boring, frankly. Something like this would liven things up,

We talk about being part of a world game. Well, this is how a world game behaves. National teams contain the best athletes in most sports, irrespective of where they earn their bread and butter.

Is there a way we can bring them to us instead of individuals leaving to them?

Interesting;
An idea that would require further / allot of thought.
Allowing a Top 14 team to bid $ for entrance into the Super?
Or making it more Aussie lets say a JPN team bid $ for entrance into the shorter NRC comp.
Aligning it more to the NRC for this example;
Let's say they make their home up at Coffs Hbr as an example only and that is where they live and play their home games.

Wamberal - Im third option as well.

 

[fatprop]

White gone too .....

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...us-after-rugby-world-cup-20150120-12ulj9.html

 

[Omar Comin']

Lol this discussion is going nowhere, so let's just wait and see how Japan, USA and Canada go against the Tier 1 nations in the RWC.. I predict it will be 60-80 point floggings,(Japan will be 40-60) in which case it's evidence that none of these countries are near the standard required to compete with the SANZAR nations in a tournament. If they aren't competitive then there's no chance In hell they will be included as it does nothing to improve the product.

Improving these countries is done so from the ground up, not the top down.. They need to improve their domestic competitions and their talent identification/academy pathways. USA stakeholder have been talking about a professionally domestic league for the last 5 years, I'm not holding my breath on them establishing one.

With this attitude the AFL would never have expanded to Sydney or Brisbane, or now the Gold Coast and Western Sydney. Sometimes you have to dilute in the short term for long term gain.

And it's not top down, it's circular. The grassroots supports the elite and the elite supports the grassroots. There are more players in Japan and the USA than in a number of tier 1 countries. What they don't have is much opportunity at the elite level. That's where the pathway stops, and where SANZAR can assist for mutual gain.

 

[TOCC]

With this attitude the AFL would never have expanded to Sydney or Brisbane, or now the Gold Coast and Western Sydney. Sometimes you have to dilute in the short term for long term gain.

And it's not top down, it's circular. The grassroots supports the elite and the elite supports the grassroots. There are more players in Japan and the USA than in a number of tier 1 countries. What they don't have is much opportunity at the elite level. That's where the pathway stops, and where SANZAR can assist for mutual gain.

Don't shoot the messenger Omar, I'm just being a realist about what is likely to happen and what can potentially happen..

AFL has spent over $30million expanding into the Gold Coast and Western Sydney and years building the grassroots level of the game before they established professional teams. ARU/NZRU don't have this kind of money just lying about..

I've already explained the issue about senior players in the USA, numbers don't directly equate to the test team... Go back and read my post if you want further explanation..






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[Omar Comin']

And SANZAR wouldn't have to spend money in the USA. It's not as 'green' as the West of Sydney is for the AFL. SANZAR would just have to open up their competitions to them. Investment would come from USA Rugby and private sources.

I'm also not talking about senior players btw. By 2011 there were about 30,000 registered high school age students playing the game in the states. It's one of the fastest growing participation sports in the country so that number has probably doubled by now. Tier 1 countries like Italy, Ireland and Scotland are no where near that. On top of that, and here's the massive number, 5 MILLION American children have gone through USA Rugby's youth and rookie rugby programs in the last 5 years.

It is an enormous opportunity for SANZAR and they seem to be missing it. Read the article I posted before with the Nigel Melville interview.

 

[Quick Hands]

The big issue for Australia - if the aim is to stop the player exodus - is that we make dramatically less revenue in world cup years, something like 25% less. ..

We just make dramatically less revenue every year, it's just a little worse in RWC years.

Increasing the earning potential of rugby is the only way to stop or reduce the player exodus. The economies of Aus, NZ and SAF just aren't big enough to do this. (If AFL and League didn't exist that would change things, but that's not going to happen.

 

[Quick Hands]

AFL has spent over $30million expanding into the Gold Coast and Western Sydney and years building the grassroots level of the game before they established professional teams. ARU/NZRU don't have this kind of money just lying about..






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Not when the Swans came to Sydney though. That was a broke South Melbourne taking a calculated gamble. Initially they were flogged regularly and attracted poor crowds for quite a few years. It gave them a foothold in Sydney though and they used it to get junior programmes going. Lots of hard work, plenty of vision, a few setbacks along the way (especially early), but ultimately rewarding and successful.

 

[TOCC]

Not when the Swans came to Sydney though. That was a broke South Melbourne taking a calculated gamble. .

So to use a fair comparison, it's similar to the ARU expanding to Perth and Melbourne

 

[wamberal]

So to use a fair comparison, it's similar to the ARU expanding to Perth and Melbourne

A couple of differences. Firstly, there was actually a fair bit of Australian Football being played in Sydney, and even more in southern NSW.

Plus the VFL had been televised for yonks. I used to watch it, back in the sixties.

The VFL made a calculated decision to expand into a national competition, mainly because big sponsors were queuing up to sponsor a nationally televised sport.

And the VFL was enormously popular in Victoria, particularly so in Melbourne. Not to mention South Australia, WA, and even Tassy and the ACT.
Alex Jesaulenko, one of the greatest players of all time,grew up playing the game in the ACT.

He was a very good rugby player, but that's a different story.

One reason South Melbourne had to relocate was that their ground was just not suitable for the game as it has evolved. Similar situation with other clubs, was one of the factors in favour of relocation.

 

[BDA]

I think its pretty clear at this point that most of the long term, big wallaby names will be heading overseas next year. People just have to understand it is a fact of life now. It's the natural progression. Most of the guys that are going overseas are guys that have been playing at the top of Aus rugby for more than 5 years now that are moving towards the twilight of their career. Their absence will create new opportunities for the next breed, and will hopefully help us to uncover the next QC (Quade Cooper) or Genia.

It is impossible to stop guys like Genia, Cooper, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Kepu who are at that stage in their career. However, I'd like to see the ARU take advantage of the growing overseas player base with some tweaking of the eligibility rules. The sabbaticals idea was a nice step in the right direction. There is a reason that most top-tier countries allow overseas eligibility (despite having significantly more depth than we do) because they understand that it is imperative to their chances of success at the top level. It is clearly even more important for a country with our slim player numbers.

Unfortunately due to the huge value the Australian public places on backline players, and that forwards (particularly tight-five players) are perceived to be less valuable, we are seeing a trend of younger tight-five players moving overseas at a young age. Most of the people on this forum recognise this is a major concern because we just don't have the depth domestically from 1 to 5 and this is one of the main reason that our national team continues to struggle to win any major silverware (which is in turn a major reason the sport is on the decline).

I've always pushed the idea of allowing our wallaby coaches some flexibility with selections. Something along the lines of:-
1) the coach can select 1 overseas based player for games played in Australia (provided they have played a minimum of 25 tests for Australia)
2) the coach can select 2 overseas based player for games played outside of Australia
3) the coach can select no more than 3 overseas players in a world cup squad.

The reason I think this would work well is as follows:-

1. Firstly it gives the coach some flexibility to either:-
a) choose an overseas based player that is head and shoulders above the domestic options; and
b) plug a whole in a specific area where we lack talent. As mentioned above, I'm specifically referring to our lack of domestic depth in the tight 5. This is true, even though there is a growing number of quality tight 5 players paying abroad, many of whom the ARU has invested a lot of time and money.

2. It gives the ARU the potential to continue to gain marketing and promotional benefits from some of the biggest players that have left the country. The return of Matt Giteau to Australia, even just to sit on the bench for 1 Bledisloe game would get huge media coverage. The addition of a Quade Cooper or a Genia to the EOYT would create added interest for casual fans. These marketing benefits shouldn't be discarded.

3. I do not believe these new rules would see any measurable change in the number of players leaving. The spots available to overseas players would be so limited that younger players will be well aware that to have serious ambitions about playing for the wallabies they will need to ply their trade in Australia. If only 1 player can be chosen for domestic tests, the 'Hugh Pyles' of this world will understand that they have bucklies chance of selection in circumstances where they would be potential competing for that position with the likes of Giteau, Genia, Ioane, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), etc, etc.

4. The huge restrictions of picking overseas base players from home games would generally lead to no overseas based players being chosen for those tests. This would in turn encourage coaches to rely solely on domestic based players (i.e. coaches would for the most part prefer consistency of selection both at home and abroad, meaning that they would prefer to maintain the same squad and only rely on overseas players to fill injury gaps / glaring weaknesses).

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[Bullrush]

WOW...with guys like White, Genia, Kepu, Higginbothom looking to head overseas, I'd be very concerned about the value of the Wallaby jersey to rugby players in Australia.

NONE of these guys have proven anything at Test level and it just looks like they are prepared to chase money than fight for the green n gold. I don't think you would see this in NZ or SA.

While I understand player motivations and don't begrudge them doing what they feel is best for themselves and their family, to me, it says a lot about how much they value being a Wallaby and what their motivations for playing are.

 

[Strewthcobber]

NONE of these guys have proven anything at Test level and it just looks like they are prepared to chase money than fight for the green n gold. I don't think you would see this in NZ or SA.

While I understand player motivations and don't begrudge them doing what they feel is best for themselves and their family, to me, it says a lot about how much they value being a Wallaby and what their motivations for playing are.

With respect that's a pretty naive view of professional rugby players.

The last Heineken Cup final had 12 South African players on the field. Nearly 100 of them play in one of the top European leagues.

 

[Braveheart81]

It also potentially says that some of these players figure they might get one more tilt at a RWC in 2019 and could go overseas and make hay while the sun shines before that.

If they want to spend part of their playing career overseas but still have aspirations to go to a second or third RWC, the only way that they might be able to achieve it is to go overseas between RWC.

 

[BDA]

with guys like White, Genia, Kepu, Higginbothom looking to head overseas, I'd be very concerned about the value of the Wallaby jersey to rugby players in Australia.

NONE of these guys have proven anything at Test level and it just looks like they are prepared to chase money than fight for the green n gold. I don't think you would see this in NZ or SA.

While I understand player motivations and don't begrudge them doing what they feel is best for themselves and their family, to me, it says a lot about how much they value being a Wallaby and what their motivations for playing are.

I don't know if that's fair. Genia will have played in 2 world cups and is no longer the first choice halfback. Kepu will have played at 2 world cups, as will Higgers. Those guys all played in a world cup semi final and won a Tri-nations title, and Kepu and Genia played in a Lions Series.

What do you mean "proven anything at test level"? If you mean they haven't beaten the All Blacks lately or won a world cup then I guess that is true.

 

[fatprop]

I don't think you would see this in NZ or SA.

say what? the ABs are starting to line up contracts as well, Franks, Thrush, Halai, Carter & Nonu have all been mentioned in the last few weeks

It happens after each RWC

 

[Bullrush]

With respect that's a pretty naive view of professional rugby players.

The last Heineken Cup final had 12 South African players on the field. Nearly 100 of them play in one of the top European leagues.

How many of them turned their backs on a Bok jersey in their prime? Also, Boks players can still get selected from overseas can't they?

It also potentially says that some of these players figure they might get one more tilt at a RWC in 2019 and could go overseas and make hay while the sun shines before that.

If they want to spend part of their playing career overseas but still have aspirations to go to a second or third RWC, the only way that they might be able to achieve it is to go overseas between RWC.

Yeah - good point. I hadn't thought of that. I wouldn't think playing overseas is going to help White and Higgers though. I think doing it at this stage in your career is pretty close to pulling up stumps.

I don't know if that's fair. Genia will have played in 2 world cups and is no longer the first choice halfback. Kepu will have played at 2 world cups, as will Higgers. Those guys all played in a world cup semi final and won a Tri-nations title, and Kepu and Genia played in a Lions Series.

What do you mean "proven anything at test level"? If you mean they haven't beaten the All Blacks lately or won a world cup then I guess that is true.

Genia - in-form, he's easily the best half-back in the country. At Test level, he has the potential to be the best in the world but has never been consistent enough (injuries obviously haven't helped).

Kepu - probably considered at the best prop in Aussie along-side Slipper. Why would you walk away from the Wallaby jersey when there seems to be still so much to accomplish in it? Eg. win a Bledisloe, win a RWC, win at least one more Rugby Championship.

White - again, probably in the Top 3 half-backs in the country. As per Kepu, aren't there things you want to do and prove in the Wallaby jersey?

Higgers - yeah...apart from being in the team, what has he proven?

Look, I'm just saying that when you stack these guys accomplishments at the highest level against the likes of a McCaw, O'Driscoll, Gregan etc...they have heaps to prove.

say what? the ABs are starting to line up contracts as well, Franks, Thrush, Halai,Carter & Nonu have all been mentioned in the last few weeks

It happens after each RWC

Carter & Nonu are at the end of their careers.

Halai and Thrush are probably not going to get a good crack at the ABs given the depth in those positions.

Franks, to me, is a loss but probably at 30 yrs old and still very much a fringe AB, I can understand.

Having these Wallabies leave is like seeing Aaron Smith, TJ Perenara, Kieran Reid, and Faumuina leave the ABs. (Bloody hell - I spose they probably will now I've gone and said it!!)

Should the Wallabies win the RWC then I suppose a lot of this changes...maybe they are backing themselves

 

[TOCC]

Kepu is the biggest loss thus far

 

[BDA]

Genia - in-form, he's easily the best half-back in the country. At Test level, he has the potential to be the best in the world but has never been consistent enough (injuries obviously haven't helped).

Kepu - probably considered at the best prop in Aussie along-side Slipper. Why would you walk away from the Wallaby jersey when there seems to be still so much to accomplish in it? Eg. win a Bledisloe, win a RWC, win at least one more Rugby Championship.

White - again, probably in the Top 3 half-backs in the country. As per Kepu, aren't there things you want to do and prove in the Wallaby jersey?

Higgers - yeah.apart from being in the team, what has he proven?

Look, I'm just saying that when you stack these guys accomplishments at the highest level against the likes of a McCaw, O'Driscoll, Gregan etc.they have heaps to prove.

I still don't get your argument that these guys have "they have heaps to prove". The above guys (White aside) are all seasoned test players that have been around the test side for at least 5 years now. When you say their accomplishments don't stack up to guys like McCaw and Gregan, that's because they're playing in a less successful set up than either of those guys did. They've won a tri-nations, theyv played in a Lions series, they have (by 2016) played in 2 world cup. I presume they are actually going to try to win the world cup this year. I don't think we should be expecting all of our players to play out their whole career for the Wallabies in search of a series win against the best team in the world.

Secondly, I think BH makes the good point that there is nothing to say these guys aren't planning on returning to the Wallabies set up in 2 or 3 years time. Money wise it is smart to go the year after the world cup whilst their stock as test players is high.

I think really the issue though is that the All Blacks have a much stronger team culture and it is always easier to get players to stick around when they're playing for a winning team, rather than a team that has been for the most part unsuccessful.

 

[Scrubber2050]

The Aussie guys heading offshore are doing it for one reason.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Only Kepu is a certain starter, the rest are only in the mix. Keps and the others are going for the bucks. Is that so wrong (from the players perspective) when WE cannot provide the same $$$. Higgers is supposed to be on a huge contract

Everyone should realise that the overseas money on offer is greater before a RWC than after (simply because of supply and demand and the certainty required by those overseas teams) After a WC there are heaps of players "on the market"

 

[Strewthcobber]

The Aussie guys heading offshore are doing it for one reason.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Only Kepu is a certain starter, the rest are only in the mix. Keps and the others are going for the bucks. Is that so wrong (from the players perspective) when WE cannot provide the same $$$. Higgers is supposed to be on a huge contract

Everyone should realise that the overseas money on offer is greater before a RWC than after (simply because of supply and demand and the certainty required by those overseas teams) After a WC there are heaps of players "on the market"

Kepu also grew up in New Zealand to Tongan parents, by accident of birth he's a Wallaby. 7 years in the jersey and 2 world cups is good service to a country that gave him his opportunity