Australia v England

[gel]

Full time professional players with at least 4 full time coaches will have these scenarios plotted before the season starts.
Captaincy would then require simple maths - are we 16 or less behind? If so, take the 3. If not, go for a try.
Is our line out winning all its ball? if yes, kick for the corner. If not, quickly run a rehearsed tap move.

It's easy from behind the keyboard!

I think Barabarian's post earlier paraphrasing the Dave Dennis story gives some perspective that muddies the waters of that particular decision. Having a feel for the game and recognising the effect a particular game changing decision may have is something that good captains will have.

I doubt many players would question Dave Dennis when he made a captain's call on something. He was a very good captain (imo) and appeared to be well respected. Horwill was another one who had a lot of respect as a captain (although Richard Graham didn't seem to think so - probably because RG was intellectually challenged).

Despite how their decisions panned out, they were rarely criticised too heavily for them because they earned their respect.

Despite being given the role, Hooper isn't a captain and never will be.

 

[vidiot]

I never understand why people rarely go for the tap. Seems a decent option a lot of the time.

I'm not sure the wallabies are capable at present of making any decisions rapidly and reliably. The 'quick tap' requires some sort of clarity of decision making.

If they could take the tap after 30s of Genia gesticulating at forwards to set up while standing with his back to the defence (as he does at most rucks) then I'm sure they would have a team leadership conference and 10 days later check in with the coach, then proceed.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

the first three names listed in the leadership group are Hooper, Pocock, Ala'alatoa.

whyFT would he be there?

That'd be like the AB's having Angus Taavao in their leadership group

 

[barbarian]

I doubt many players would question Dave Dennis when he made a captain's call on something. He was a very good captain (imo) and appeared to be well respected. Horwill was another one who had a lot of respect as a captain (although Richard Graham didn't seem to think so - probably because RG was intellectually challenged).

Despite how their decisions panned out, they were rarely criticised too heavily for them because they earned their respect.

Despite being given the role, Hooper isn't a captain and never will be.

This is an interesting analysis. You posit that Dennis and Horwill were respected, then say that Hooper is not. What is your evidence for any of this?

It seems to me that unless you are inside the sheds, it's very hard to know how a captain is viewed by his peers.
.

 

[Lorenzo]

Wouldn’t be bad. Get back to basics. That’s what test footy is all about. Give Beale, Folau, Petaia and co some good front foot ball to work with.

lol at Beale featuring heavily in any plans White makes. A defence capable of its own offence would be his highest priority.

 

[gel]

Hooper has twice been heard to tell refs that his players aren't listening to him. And they weren't. I have never heard any other captain say that ever (and no captain should ever do so).

Hooper is constantly dismissed by referees while the other two were not.

When the other two make decisions that don't pan out, the public are rarely outraged. When Hooper makes a bad decision he is instantly criticised widely by everyone outside a very small clique of individuals (largely comprised of individuals from one particular province). A captain is also the face and representative to the public, that's not a role that can be ignored.

Listen to him talk or the way he behaves on the field with the arm waving and screaming at the referee during play and it's not hard to see why we don't get the 50/50 (or even 90/10s) going our way. Only Phipps is worse than Hooper in that regard.

He's not a captain or leader.

 

[Derpus]

Hooper has twice been heard to tell refs that his players aren't listening to him. And they weren't. I have never heard any other captain say that ever (and no captain should ever do so).

Hooper is constantly dismissed by referees while the other two were not.

When the other two make decisions that don't pan out, the public are rarely outraged. When Hooper makes a bad decision he is instantly criticised widely by everyone outside a very small clique of individuals (largely comprised of individuals from one particular province). A captain is also the face and representative to the public, that's not a role that can be ignored.

Listen to him talk or the way he behaves on the field with the arm waving and screaming at the referee during play and it's not hard to see why we don't get the 50/50 (or even 90/10s) going our way. Only Phipps is worse than Hooper in that regard.

He's not a captain or leader.

Doesn't this indicate that he is being unfairly criticized by the public? Are you saying being captain is a popularity contest? How peculiar.

The arm waving and screaming seems to influence refs just fine for TJ and A. Smith. I've even seen Reid have a whinge.

Pretty sure you still have me on block though, so eh.

 

[Lorenzo]

To be fair, I'm coming around to the idea... but they could really only offer him an incentive based contract depending on RWC results.

I'd give White till the end of 2020 with a trigger for another 12mo if he is >60% at that point, or something like that.

I wouldn't expect a decent and currently employed coach to give up their (lucrative, I bet) gig to coach this dumpster fire for 10 tests and bet their next 2 or 3 year's salary on us doing well at the RWC. Why would they?

 

[The Honey Badger]

https://www.facebook.com/705676179527389/posts/2120191798075813/

Even the Beetoota Advocate is onto this one

 

[gel]

Want to engage with your base during tough times (or any times - but people are going to be more receptive during the good times naturally)?

Don't thrust a divisive individual in front of them. *edit* divisive is the wrong word - polarising is the one I am after.

As to your second point, TJ and Aaron are listened to though while Hooper is not - a further sign he is not respected.

Your captain simply must have respect and Hooper is *not* respected.

 

[Derpus]

Want to engage with your base during tough times (or any times - but people are going to be more receptive during the good times naturally)?

Don't thrust a divisive individual in front of them.

As to your second point, TJ and Aaron are listened to though while Hooper is not - a further sign he is not respected.

Your captain simply must have respect and Hooper is *not* respected.

Stephen Moore was pretty much universally respected within Australian rugby and was just as unsuccessful with the refs.

But it's hard to disagree that Hooper isn't respected, by the public at least.

 

[barbarian]

Hooper has twice been heard to tell refs that his players aren't listening to him. And they weren't. I have never heard any other captain say that ever (and no captain should ever do so).

Hooper is constantly dismissed by referees while the other two were not.

When the other two make decisions that don't pan out, the public are rarely outraged. When Hooper makes a bad decision he is instantly criticised widely by everyone outside a very small clique of individuals (largely comprised of individuals from one particular province). A captain is also the face and representative to the public, that's not a role that can be ignored.

Listen to him talk or the way he behaves on the field with the arm waving and screaming at the referee during play and it's not hard to see why we don't get the 50/50 (or even 90/10s) going our way. Only Phipps is worse than Hooper in that regard.

He's not a captain or leader.

I think there's a bit of revisionist history going on there. According to your analysis, Dennis and Horwill were titanic leaders while Hooper is ignored and derided by both his team-mates AND referees.

After all, both Dennis and Horwill led teams to Super titles (though Dennis didn't actually take the field for the last month or so, with the on-field role taken by, um...... Hooper. But that's besides the point).

In terms of ref relations, I would argue Hooper is no better or worse than previous skippers. I think the whole 'captaincy changes the ref' thing is a bit overblown. I don't recall him being penalised for backchat or doing anything aggregious.

The public outrage comment is a bit odd. Plenty of skippers have made bad calls and been roasted for it. I don't know how you've convinced yourself that it's only Hooper who is ever criticised.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. I don't know if he's a good captain or not. From what I've seen he seems to command enough respect on the field, and he lets his play do a lot of the talking. Do the players respect him? I've got no idea. Coming on here and laying into the bloke is all well and good, but you don't really have much evidence to base your opinion on.
.

 

[Joe Blow]

lol at Beale featuring heavily in any plans White makes. A defence capable of its own offence would be his highest priority.

Thats OK. Defence wins tests matches.
There was a time not long ago when Beales defence improved immeasurably. He can do it if he wishes to.

 

[Lorenzo]

Thats OK. Defence wins tests matches.
There was a time not long ago when Beales defence improved immeasurably. He can do it if he wishes to.

It's more than OK, it's precisely what we need.

 

[Derpus]

Thats OK. Defence wins tests matches.
There was a time not long ago when Beales defence improved immeasurably. He can do it if he wishes to.

What happened to that. He dominated SBW in that test in Dunedin. None of that this year.

 

[barbarian]

His defence in the game against Ireland in Brisbane was awesome too, he generally combined well with Kerevi in that series. What happened to that too??

 

[gel]

I think there's a bit of revisionist history going on there. According to your analysis, Dennis and Horwill were titanic leaders while Hooper is ignored and derided by both his team-mates AND referees.

Please quote where I said they were "titanic leaders". Don't put words in my mouth and then use them as a basic for argument.

The public outrage comment is a bit odd. Plenty of skippers have made bad calls and been roasted for it. I don't know how you've convinced yourself that it's only Hooper who is ever criticised.

I used the word "rarely" with purpose because I am well aware that other captains (the two I mentioned included) do get roasted. At no stage did I say that "only Hooper who is ever criticised" - please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. I don't know if he's a good captain or not. From what I've seen he seems to command enough respect on the field, and he lets his play do a lot of the talking. Do the players respect him? I've got no idea. Coming on here and laying into the bloke is all well and good, but you don't really have much evidence to base your opinion on.
.

You asked for evidence for why I hold that view, and I gave it. You don't have to agree with my assessment, but you don't get to make up things that I said.

 

[Braveheart81]

If you're marking our backline on their ability to make one on one tackles every starting player barring Folau missed straight forward tackles and/or made huge defensive errors.

It was a shocker from our backs.

 

[Joe Blow]

If you're marking our backline on their ability to make one on one tackles every starting player barring Folau missed straight forward tackles and/or made huge defensive errors.

It was a shocker from our backs.

That has to mean that their hearts are not in it. Beale has the size and technique to defend aggressively when he chooses to. Even Foley fronts up and shows no fear when tackling in just about every test. Genia is a bit lacklustre at times lately and just gives up.
Someone like JW would put in a very solid centre pairing and wings that can defend well.

 

[Derpus]

I still think we missed TK massively this year. Kerevi is an improvement on Hodge but is still a 12.

Leaves me wondering where Hodge fits in. Probably behind TK, Kerevi and potentially Petaia at 13. Probably behind To'omua, Kerevi and Beale at 12. Wing maybe.