Australia v Scotland, 3:00pm 17 June Sydney Football Stadium

[cyclopath]

So they don't go by the modern chestnut that teams are less likely to score after holding the ball for more than three phases?

Eh? Is that a thing? I've never heard it.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Eh? Is that a thing? I've never heard it.

That's because we haven't held the ball for three phases since 2003

 

[wamberal]

I was thinking of you yesterday, wamberal.
There was so little football played in the first half and what there was was dire from us and I thought wamberal's right, it no wonder the place is 1/3 empty with this dire concoction of time wasting and poor skills it should not be a surprise no one is watching.

It is very depressing for all of us right now. I have been around for a long time, I reckon this is a low period for sure. There have been several of them during my lifetime, but for some reason this feels like the worst.

 

[wamberal]

Eh? Is that a thing? I've never heard it.

Mick Byrne said that it was actually more tiring for a team to hold the ball for multiple phases than it was to defend for multiple phases. But I have never heard the three phrases idea.

 

[Highlander35]

Eh? Is that a thing? I've never heard it.

Between the amount of tries scored off of kick returns, turnovers (including interceptions), and set pieces/set piece moves, it wouldn't be that surprising if it were the case, albeit I've not yet seen any data behind it.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Fair enough.
Geez Wikipedia updates quicker than ARU.com.au. As a matter of interest who is he replacing?

No-one, Gatland just wants 46 players so he can rest his Test 23 for the two remaining midweek matches (Chiefs this Tuesday, Hurricanes next).

 

[cyclopath]

Mick Byrne said that it was actually more tiring for a team to hold the ball for multiple phases than it was to defend for multiple phases. But I have never heard the three phrases idea.

OK, the first bit kind of makes sense. Nevertheless, it seemed obvious in that second half that the Scots defence was becoming slowly more stretched, but we lost our cool before getting what seemed to be the inevitable break. Maybe they were tired?

 

[wamberal]

I agree with you. We just seemed to lack any sort of game plan, either in attack or defence.

 

[RedsHappy]

Funny this: the vast majority of posts here are laments of one kind or another re individual players and selections and who would be a better pick at position x or y or whatever. Or too many Tahs. Or replace the 8, or the 6. Or, from the HC himself, 'what isn't everyone as passionate as Hooper'.

Yet we see: Ireland, Scotland and England all quite dramatically improved in relatively short periods from their prior standards by better coaching. No, it wasn't a sudden burst of newly greater players randomly arriving to these teams, incontestably it has been superior coaching teams applying themselves to the player resources available.

But no one here seems to think that the Wallaby coaching group might actually be the heartland problem of the 2016-17 Wallabies. That it could be that these men are insufficiently experienced and/or talented at their jobs to compete with better coaching teams recently arriving to build up other rugby national teams.

Or that the Australian rugby system is gradually getting poorer and poorer at creating good-enough or world-class rugby coaches, either generalist or specialist in nature.

Are we looking closely enough?

 

[Pfitzy]

OK, the first bit kind of makes sense. Nevertheless, it seemed obvious in that second half that the Scots defence was becoming slowly more stretched, but we lost our cool before getting what seemed to be the inevitable break. Maybe they were tired?

And it shows our fitness isn't good enough.
Which indicates pressure for positions isn't good enough.
Which indicates Super Rugby isn't good enough.
Which indicates Club AND Schools Rugby isn't good enough.

So, by all means, let's bitch about the Wallabies. But let's remember the ongoing mistakes that keep us in this little pattern. The players and coaches are only as good as the system they're built on.

 

[RedsHappy]

And it shows our fitness isn't good enough.
Which indicates pressure for positions isn't good enough.
Which indicates Super Rugby isn't good enough.
Which indicates Club AND Schools Rugby isn't good enough.

So, by all means, let's bitch about the Wallabies. But let's remember the ongoing mistakes that keep us in this little pattern. The players and coaches are only as good as the system they're built on.

Bravo.

The Australian rugby system is as sick as a parrot. Has been for a decade or more.

It's just that the evidence and symptoms are becoming more and more obvious. And the consequences more and more serious for the entire viability of the code here.

Blaming players is a deceit.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Re: three phases - I can't show the source data from Super Rugby and World cup tournaments right now, so do treat it with 1g QID of skepticism, but I have seen it before (there's bound to be an L3 coach on here who probably has it sitting in the dank depths of their hard drive).

Basically most tries in rep and professional rugby are scored within three phases of possession. It sort of makes sense - get the defense backpedalling then strike before they have time to realign. Taking the ball into contact carries risk, and more so when the defense has time to organise.

Addit: It wouldn't surprise me that having to scramble to each offensive breakdown to secure the ball would make the team in possession more tired than defending in a well organised pattern.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Bravo.

The Australian rugby system is as sick as a parrot. Has been for a decade or more.

Blaming players is a deceit.

if you show me the coaches and administrators who told Genia and perhaps more crucially DHP they should kick at every opportunity I'm happy to blame them.

 

[The torpedo]

The coach can only yell "faster" at the players so much.

The players have to push themselves at training - they quite clearly don't.

The evidence is in their performances.

Edit -this frustrating to watch week in week out.

If they're not listening to the coach that is a massive sign of a player revolt

 

[Strewthcobber]

Re: three phases - I can't show the source data from Super Rugby and World cup tournaments right now, so do treat it with 1g QID of skepticism, but I have seen it before (there's bound to be an L3 coach on here who probably has it sitting in the dank depths of their hard drive).

World Rugby put out a statistical analyis of each World Cup
2015 is here
http://pulse-static-files.s3.amazon...4_Rugby_World_Cup_2015_Statistcial_Report.pdf

47% of tries were scored after 0 or 1 ruck or maul
60% of tries were scored after less than 3 phases.

Some other stats
50% of tries originated from lineouts, 15% from scrums, 11% turnovers, 10% opp kicks, 7% restarts, 5% penalties/free kicks

25% of tries originated from inside own half
9% halfway to 40m, 20% from 40m to 22, and 46% inside the 22.

So stop the first couple of phases after a lineout inside the 22m and you've gone a long way to stopping the tries - exactly what Scotland managed to do all game yesterday

 

[gel]

I don't think that is a fair assessment. If the coach can only yell 'faster' then the coach is crap. I didn't see any fitness issues yesterday so I'm not sure what you mean by evidence is in their performances. We also scored three tries and defended okay so the boys are clearly putting what they trained to application.

Our screw-ups looked to have really have two bases:

• We got killed by their rush defence, which apparently this group of coaches have no plan for - this lead to dropped balls, turnovers and passes to no one.
• Also, I'm pretty sure the game plan was to play an extremely face-paced attacking style of rugby. When this wasn't working out, the coaches should have said to the boys during half-time to calm it down and just try to build some phases first. They clearly didn't do this as the wobs came out even more desperate to score off every phase in the second half.

Multiple coaching setups. multiple levels of coaching experience. Varying levels of coaching success across multiple competitions and countries. Vast differences in coaching backgrounds.

Australian rugby players can't execute the skills necessary to win.

The common denominator is the players. It doesn't matter who is coaching, they all exhibit enormous deficiencies on core skills and clearly take no steps to rectify that situation.

If these guys had one molecule of pride in their bodies they would take some ownership of their repeatedly fucked up performances and get some personal help with their careers instead of waiting for someone else to figure everything out for them.

(watch how Nz teams handle a rush defence - a well executed chip and chase followed by regather and 60m gain once or twice sets a defensive line right back on its heels. We can't do that because none of our players practice the chip and chase well enough to be able to execute it with any accuracy to make it effective. Blame the coaching all you want, but you'd be wrong to lay it so clearly at their feet).

 

[drewprint]

Really keen to see ForceFans statistical analysis of this match.

 

[gel]

Bravo.

The Australian rugby system is as sick as a parrot. Has been for a decade or more.

It's just that the evidence and symptoms are becoming more and more obvious. And the consequences more and more serious for the entire viability of the code here.

Blaming players is a deceit.

There's no question that there are systemic issues, but surely you can't be serious that professional athletes shouldn't take ownership of their own careers?

Quade's ineptitude at tackling (and getting sent off repeatedly) and tendency to drop off his flat passes to make them look forward is his problem to fix. there's no way he's being coached by Stiles, Cheika or anyone else to do those things. similarly with Foley's general in game kicking (it's pretty poor and has been forever) - who's he hired to assist him with bettering his own game?

Don't even get me started on these guys inability to pass left to right.

There will be no improvement until the players take FULL ownership of their own performances.

 

[wamberal]

IMHO the biggest single problem over the last twenty years has been the lack of any kind of sense of unity amongst all stakeholders. Blind Freddy could see, with the benefit of hindsight, that the Soup franchises should have been willing to accept some sort of central control of their playing resources, not to mention coaching resources.

The strong codes can afford parochialism. Rife in both the NRL and AFL, and yet both have a lot of control of player movements, one way or another.


We cannot afford to be divided. And yet we are more divided than ever.

 

[TOCC]

IMHO the biggest single problem over the last twenty years has been the lack of any kind of sense of unity amongst all stakeholders. Blind Freddy could see, with the benefit of hindsight, that the Soup franchises should have been willing to accept some sort of central control of their playing resources, not to mention coaching resources.

The strong codes can afford parochialism. Rife in both the NRL and AFL, and yet both have a lot of control of player movements, one way or another.


We cannot afford to be divided. And yet we are more divided than ever.

NRL and certainly the AFL are far more unified then rugby union... NSW is perfect example.. NSWRU, Waratahs, SRU, ARU and Schoolboys are all governed by seperate boards with different agendas and heirachies.. then you also have parts of NSW which are governed by the ACT