Australia vs British and Irish Lions 2nd Test (Melbourne)

[Richo]

Lilo might well make 12 his own this season and I don't like the idea of moving him to 10. He'll play at 12 for the Brumbies, keep him there for the Wallabies.

I suspect To'omua will be the 10 soon enough. All the attributes, as others have said.

 

[Tomikin]

I would have to re check but I am sure he took a knock in the previous play which resulted in his laboured run. I would have liked to see Mogg get a cap but I don't think KBs match fitness can be questioned although his late night meal runs are not out of the dieticians text book.

I noticed it in another run later, as well... Be interested to know

 

[en_force_er]

Anybody that thinks our tactics (and thus Deans) are to blame for nonexpansive rugby is being ridiculous.

We (read: the Wobs) play a very flat expansive style with plenty of runners in even our one out forward pods. We play a style where moving the ball laterally and JUST making the gainline is more important than playing direct and making lots of metres. Basically, you're trying to break their D by moving it around. This is how Kiwis generally play, particularly at the 'Saders.

We also name a team of guys that want to and can (sometimes) use the ball. You could argue JOC (James O'Connor) is not a 10, and you'd be right for mine, but the fact is he's the kind of player that really accelerates in an expansive team.

Why were we not expansive? Our breakdown effectiveness was poor (very few 1 for 1 take outs at the breakdown) which made the ball slow AND our errors (read: knock-ons) were high. Plus they're extremely good defenders to begin with, so we just didn't have much of a chance to play ball.

That being said, just because Deans' tactics were sound (and they absolutely were) does not a good coach make. He takes account of the entire operation.

No saying he's a bad or good coach, I think he has strengths and shortcomings. However, his tactics are certainly sound.

 

[RoffsChoice]

en_force_er Nice to see a moderate who's thinking, top comment.

 

[en_force_er]

en_force_er Nice to see a moderate who's thinking, top comment.

Thanks. I've been going out of my way to lift my game understanding in recent years. Less just watching and more analysing.

 

[barbarian]

Agree totally. I think we've been playing a pretty attractive style, certainly not the kick-based negativity a lot of us were expecting.

 

[Pfitzy]

Agree totally. I think we've been playing a pretty attractive style, certainly not the kick-based negativity a lot of us were expecting.

Booyah. All this talk of us playing boring rugby - particularly in light of this series - is waffle. Yes, Deans has had issues getting things to fire, but this year we have started well.

Funny coincidence, no?

 

[Pete King]

Aside from the obvious skills he displays:

- good long and short passing game
- big boot
- strong in contact
- brutal defender

What I like about him is that he's cool as a mother fuckin' cucumber....

And we already have so many x factor players in our backline I think we could benefit from a good, level headed, reliable playmaker who can get us into an attacking position to unleash those players....

I don't think he's the kind of player to get overwhelmed if he's called up for the RC... despite being young he has been around for a while.. bizarre to think he was a Wallaby squad member 4 years ago...

agreed, Citing our other three debutants to appear prominently in this series - Lilo, Mowen, Izzy you would have to say that players these days are making the step up easier on the back of a strong super comp.

 

[lewisr]

This is how Kiwis generally play, particularly at the 'Saders.

en_force_er, as much as I'd like to disagree, I think your comment that his tactics and gameplan are sound, I do think you're absolutely right. THey have merit and they have proven to be successful numerous times in the past.

But the key issue for me is your comment above. Are we the kiwis? No. Are our players the same as the Kiwis? maybe a few but generally not. Are we going to beat the kiwis playing there own game? I personally don't think so.

And therein lies the inherent issue with Dingos coaching. We are an Aussie team and our BEST backs in their best respective positions do not have the same skill set as their kiwi counterparts. We don't have an enormous ball running 12, that can also throw huge cut out passes and drop in little grubbers, like Ma'a Nonu. We don't have a Dan Carter (yet, To'omua may just become that bloke).

But we do have players like Kurtley Beale, Israel Folau and JOC (James O'Connor) who need the ball in open space and broken play running off quick distributed ball from the 10 and 12 to make breaks.

We saw lateral and flat gain line play from the forwards on the weekend, it was expansive, quick and extremely effective in my opinion. But as soon as we got it to the backs, there was very little penetration because they were standing 15m deep and didn't want to front up to the defence and take them on flat, and expansively like their forward counterparts. How is that exciting? How is that using our oodles of x factor talent well? It simply isn't.

Deans has had 6 years to realise that this team isn't the Crusaders. He does not have a Richie McCaw skipper (although he tried his damnedest to turn Rocky Elsom into the same mould), there is no Dan Carter perfectly balanced genius in the side (Barnesy is bloody close but his head knocks have cost him) and we don't have the big 12 that can also make plays like Nonu (Read: Pat McCabe).

So the issue for me, as I said earlier, is that this team is not a kiwi team. Therefore, a kiwi game plan is not going to be as effective with the players because it forces players out of position of forces selections that may be second rate to another option. Play a gameplan that grabs the skills of your players by the scruff of the neck and implores them to use their full potential on the field.

Just my 2c

 

[fatprop]

Yeah, I thought that play in the first half where they kept rolling around the corner to the left; and then kicked to Folau on the far right was really really smart rugby.

If we held the ball a bit more we may have been able to build more opportunities like that.

But there was intent to manipulate the defense

 

[Brumby Runner]

Really, did Mogg get on the field?

I would prefer to see Barnes called on in the last minutes next week than a kid who has never been there

I really thought the efforts of Folau, Mowen and Lealiifano would put to bed the notion that players in form shouldn't debut against the Lions. Barnes should consider his long term health and put away the boots imo. Just one more knock even in the last 10 minutes could have long lasting consequences. I have no doubts at all about Jesse Mogg coming off the bench and doing the job.

 

[Scotty]

Just watching the last couple minutes of the match again, as I couldn't clearly see what was happening in the rucks for those last penalties....

And while it made it a dramatic finish the game shouldn't have come down to that last penalty when Mowen was (rightly) done for not rolling away...

At the ruck where Gill was penalised for not releasing (which handed the Lions back the ball) Vunipola is lying right on top of him and has made no effort to roll away, right in front of Joubert....

Same infringement.... different ruling...

Anyways, I think that's the kind of night he had, and didn't think he did as good of a job as Pollock...

I know the exact one you are talking about. I got the feeling at the time that Joubert saw it but wanted to let it play out (didn't want to kill the game for the Lions). Then there is an offence where he needs to adjudicate on and he gives the penalty to the Lions.

I might be wrong, but I can't see how he could miss the original offense.

 

[Scotty]

At present, probably not. Although I see To'omua as our 10 sooner rather than later.



I'm not happy, but can see the lack of real alternatives. I don't necessarily agree with the decision to have him at 10, but I certainly don't think he is as terrible as many have made out.

Put it this way- I have seen far worse performances in a gold 10 jersey than the one put in last night.
.

Agree that he wasn't hopeless, but I keep going back to this feeling that Robbie himself doesn't believe he is the best 10 and he is constantly shuffling the deck to get it all to work.

It is so hypocritical when he has criticised the use of Cooper at the Reds.

 

[Braveheart81]

I seen AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) score this same try many times but this is the first time anyone has given the credit to the bloke passing him the ball. He's a great gap runner and great in traffic. Somehow you guys want to suddenly give someone else the credit for his play. On top of that your ignoring the 14 phases before the pass and giving the credit to one guy. It was a great team try.

Great post.

I definitely think it was a team try in that it took all 15 blokes and 14 phases to get the team in a position where we were less than 10 metres out and JOC (James O'Connor) and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) were lined up with a fair amount of space and one on one defenders against them and reasonably quick ball.

JOC (James O'Connor) and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) had a huge amount to do to actually score the try from that position which they did beautifully but that to me is the sign of what you have to do to exploit an excellent defence.

In this series, tries will generally not come easily and it involves creating an opportunity that might take many phases to create and then needs to be executed perfectly.

In terms of the actual try, both JOC (James O'Connor) and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) did their part. JOC (James O'Connor) held the ball out in front and got close enough to the line between Sexton and Davies that Davies made the incorrect decision to shift towards JOC (James O'Connor) providing AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) more space.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) ran a good line at the hole and JOC (James O'Connor)'s pass was at just the right time that Davies could only get his hands on AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) but was never in a position to make an effective tackle that close to the line.

 

[Brumby Runner]

It's funny how the narrative of people predicting 'what Deans will do' has shifted.

All through the Super season people were convinced Deans would ignore form players like Lealiifano, Mowen, Tomane, Mogg, Gill etc. and pick his old favourites like McCabe, Dennis etc.

But then, by and large, Deans doesn't do that at all. And these blokes are now wearing gold.

So it shifts to focus solely on the 10 jumper. Deans is inadequate as a coach because he keeps picking JOC (James O'Connor) at 10. Even though we just beat the Lions with our centres and outside backs having a far greater impact on the game than the Lions outside men. Not saying JOC (James O'Connor) was outstanding, but I think he was certainly better than most seem to think.

And now we have this- 'Robbie won't change it up, he will stick blindly to the blokes who did the job in Melbourne'.

I am not necessarily saying he won't do that. But my point here is a lot of RD predictions have been wrong this year, and it wouldn't surprise me if this was another one.
.

Too much credit to Deans. Sure he picked Christian, but Mowen, Tomane and Mogg were forced on him by injuries to initial squad members. I am more concerned about the narrative of many who claimed the Lions' series was no place or time to bring in debutants. On the whole, Mowen, Folau and now Lealiifano have been amongs the best performed in the tests and these were the in-form players some of us were wanting in the first place but who wouldn't have been given the opportunity if not for injuries. Form should prevail over reputation at all times.

 

[Braveheart81]

Too much credit to Deans. Sure he picked Christian, but Mowen, Tomane and Mogg were forced on him by injuries to initial squad members. I am more concerned about the narrative of many who claimed the Lions' series was no place or time to bring in debutants. On the whole, Mowen, Folau and now Lealiifano have been amongs the best performed in the tests and these were the in-form players some of us were wanting in the first place but who wouldn't have been given the opportunity if not for injuries. Form should prevail over reputation at all times.

Mowen would have been in the squad regardless. If Higginbotham was healthy and picked at 6 instead of Mowen you could hardly argue that was not a form selection. Higginbotham was in career best form.

Tomane and Mogg were the result of injuries but neither of them were bashing down the door demanding to be selected in the month leading up the squad being picked. Their place in the pecking order seemed appropriate when weighing up their form and the form/experience of others in the selection mix.

 

[Richo]

If there was a positive from the pre-series injuries, it was Timani going down and ensuring that Douglas got a start. He hasn't been amazing, but he's been solid in both games and is a legitimate line out target.

 

[Richo]

By the way, it's pretty interesting to look at the stats from the second test.

http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match22231.html

Mowen, who everyone thinks had a great game: 3 tackles, 5 runs (20m), 4 penalties, 1 t/o, 5 ruck/mauls.

Palu, who a number of people think was rubbish: 5 tackles, 12 runs (41m), 1 penalty, 1 t/o, 11 ruck/mauls.

Moore: 9 tackles, 12 runs (35m), 1 penalty, 3 t/o, 12 ruck/mauls.

Again, it's not that stats explain everything and some of the various involvements could have been ineffective, but it does give some interesting counterpoints to the general narrative. 4 penalties from Mowen, for example, is really bad and could easily have lost us the series. Palu only played 61 minutes, but still accumulated better stats than Mowen. I'm not saying Palu had a better game necessarily, just that the stats tell a more nuanced story than some punters.

 

[fatprop]

If there was a positive from the pre-series injuries, it was Timani going down and ensuring that Douglas got a start. He hasn't been amazing, but he's been solid in both games and is a legitimate line out target.

Douglas struggled in that game to me, his stats were way down, I think that head knock was an issue.

On the lineout, Mowen, Hooper & Palu were the catchers, Horwill & Douglas were thrown away from

http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match22231.html

 

[Richo]

Douglas struggled in that game to me, his stats were way down, I think that head knock was an issue.

On the lineout, Mowen, Hooper & Palu were the catchers, Horwill & Douglas were thrown away from

http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match22231.html

I don't think Douglas has been better than average in either game, but that's fine. He hasn't been a liability either.

You're right on the line out, but it makes a difference that Douglas is an option, whereas Timani is not.