Australia Vs. England, Twickenham, 2nd November 2013
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Mark Ella (57)
I actually stayed up to watch that dross for the first time since about 2010. So here my thoughts after considering the farce in order of importance:-
1) Officials - The performance of Clancy et al (lets not leave the TMO out) was worse than an amateur level. That they get paid for that is the true disgrace. I can accept that professionals will miss a couple of marginal passes or a knock on the the heat of a fast paced game. This ws not a fast paced game to start with but the sheer number of basic infringments that got missed is astounding, and most seemed to favour the English, perhaps on weight of possession, making it worse was the fact that Clancy actually called "play on" after some of them. I don't really have to since everyone else has made the comments about the two English tries, but this point would not be complete without pointing out that both were scored directly from pure refereeing blunders. The scrum rulings worked on pure pre-conceived ideas.
This was as abject a display from a referee (and Co) that I can recall, it would be fair if they never controlled a professional game again
2) Breakdown - The Wallabies continue to avoid it. It is no accident that for Wallaby try the arriving players hit the breakdown and drove PAST it. The Wallabies barely committed a player to the rest in the game and it showed with 1 turnover to them and perennially slow ball and England players being able to disguise their handling of the ball on the ground.
3) Selections -
a) Hooper - the only reason I can see for the continued selection of Hooper is because the Wallabies are no contesting the breakdown. He is being selected IMO for everything else away from the breakdown because it is just not a priority. That would be fine if somebody else filled that role. Perhaps if Robinson (and I remain unconvinced of his fitness) and Fainga'a (but Moore is the top forward performer for mine) were selected to start this could be carried. The hard fact is that nobody is doing shit at the breakdown.
b) Alexander - surely he has reached his Al Baxter moment. As poorly as the scrums were officiated, in terms of everything else that went on Alexander bound to the arm of Vunipola at every scrum that we saw on his side and he could of been penalised for it legitimately. If he is the best THP in Australia I'll eat my hat. I wouldn't rate him in the top 4, with Kepu, Ryan, Palmer (when fit) Slipper and probably some others far in front of him. That two of those are in the squad really is an indictment on selections IMO.
c) Timani - when Link selected him after the years of Robbie love and others here stating how effective and important the work he does is, I thought I should hold off and suck it up. Well is every game under Link I have really looked for positives in his play and sorry to say I just don't see it. Extremely poor at lineout, so poor he is a fundamental liability in a core aspect of his duties as a second rower. If he was basically effective as Brad Thorn was, but still didn't jump it could be accepted. Timani doesn't jump and doesn't even catch balls thrown directly to him at head height. As with front rowers, IMO if he doesn't fill the meat and potatoes duties for his position WTF is he selected. (Just to piss me off when he failed abysmally to take the lineout thrown directly to him he turned and jogged so slowly back towards the Australian goal line that I could have walked quicker.) Oh that's right because he is allegedly this super large person that clears out the ruck and smashes in defence and is the got to man for forward momentum. How does that equate with the actual realities of him being tackled on or behind the advantage line for little or no metres gained, the premise of avoiding of the breakdown I mentioned above and the fundamental lack of workrate we see (as evidenced by the slow jog in the first F%%$ half).
d) Genia - box kicks, what can be said really? I vary from head in hands to shouting WTF. A pity Stirzacker isn't on the tour, if a dropping to the bench fires him up for a game maybe dropping him from the match day 23 for a couple of games would get some consistency. Passing slow and laboured. The plaudits of him being the worlds best 9 just ignores the fundamentals.
For all the hope the accurate well execute play against NZ stirred, regardless of the result, this game was just dire. Yes the refereeing performance was very substandard, and yes it did materially effect the outcome, but just as I judged the loss to NZ as a very good result for Australian Rugby because of the manner it was achieved and the skills displayed, this really has to be judged as the abject failure that it was. Yes without the referee gifting England 14 points the Wallabies would have won, but that shouldn't be used to cover what was a poor, listless and largely skill-less performance by the Wallabies.
1) Officials - The performance of Clancy et al (lets not leave the TMO out) was worse than an amateur level. That they get paid for that is the true disgrace. I can accept that professionals will miss a couple of marginal passes or a knock on the the heat of a fast paced game. This ws not a fast paced game to start with but the sheer number of basic infringments that got missed is astounding, and most seemed to favour the English, perhaps on weight of possession, making it worse was the fact that Clancy actually called "play on" after some of them. I don't really have to since everyone else has made the comments about the two English tries, but this point would not be complete without pointing out that both were scored directly from pure refereeing blunders. The scrum rulings worked on pure pre-conceived ideas.
This was as abject a display from a referee (and Co) that I can recall, it would be fair if they never controlled a professional game again
2) Breakdown - The Wallabies continue to avoid it. It is no accident that for Wallaby try the arriving players hit the breakdown and drove PAST it. The Wallabies barely committed a player to the rest in the game and it showed with 1 turnover to them and perennially slow ball and England players being able to disguise their handling of the ball on the ground.
3) Selections -
a) Hooper - the only reason I can see for the continued selection of Hooper is because the Wallabies are no contesting the breakdown. He is being selected IMO for everything else away from the breakdown because it is just not a priority. That would be fine if somebody else filled that role. Perhaps if Robinson (and I remain unconvinced of his fitness) and Fainga'a (but Moore is the top forward performer for mine) were selected to start this could be carried. The hard fact is that nobody is doing shit at the breakdown.
b) Alexander - surely he has reached his Al Baxter moment. As poorly as the scrums were officiated, in terms of everything else that went on Alexander bound to the arm of Vunipola at every scrum that we saw on his side and he could of been penalised for it legitimately. If he is the best THP in Australia I'll eat my hat. I wouldn't rate him in the top 4, with Kepu, Ryan, Palmer (when fit) Slipper and probably some others far in front of him. That two of those are in the squad really is an indictment on selections IMO.
c) Timani - when Link selected him after the years of Robbie love and others here stating how effective and important the work he does is, I thought I should hold off and suck it up. Well is every game under Link I have really looked for positives in his play and sorry to say I just don't see it. Extremely poor at lineout, so poor he is a fundamental liability in a core aspect of his duties as a second rower. If he was basically effective as Brad Thorn was, but still didn't jump it could be accepted. Timani doesn't jump and doesn't even catch balls thrown directly to him at head height. As with front rowers, IMO if he doesn't fill the meat and potatoes duties for his position WTF is he selected. (Just to piss me off when he failed abysmally to take the lineout thrown directly to him he turned and jogged so slowly back towards the Australian goal line that I could have walked quicker.) Oh that's right because he is allegedly this super large person that clears out the ruck and smashes in defence and is the got to man for forward momentum. How does that equate with the actual realities of him being tackled on or behind the advantage line for little or no metres gained, the premise of avoiding of the breakdown I mentioned above and the fundamental lack of workrate we see (as evidenced by the slow jog in the first F%%$ half).
d) Genia - box kicks, what can be said really? I vary from head in hands to shouting WTF. A pity Stirzacker isn't on the tour, if a dropping to the bench fires him up for a game maybe dropping him from the match day 23 for a couple of games would get some consistency. Passing slow and laboured. The plaudits of him being the worlds best 9 just ignores the fundamentals.
For all the hope the accurate well execute play against NZ stirred, regardless of the result, this game was just dire. Yes the refereeing performance was very substandard, and yes it did materially effect the outcome, but just as I judged the loss to NZ as a very good result for Australian Rugby because of the manner it was achieved and the skills displayed, this really has to be judged as the abject failure that it was. Yes without the referee gifting England 14 points the Wallabies would have won, but that shouldn't be used to cover what was a poor, listless and largely skill-less performance by the Wallabies.
biggsy
Chilla Wilson (44)
I hope the Wallabies and Link actually relise this and not Drone on about unfortunate refereeing decisions and the same Media chat that they put forward about what went wrong and what to work on. THEY SHOULD BE GETTING BETTER NOT WORSE
The ref may have gifted the England 14 points, but at the same time the Wallabies also help the cause.
How long it took Genia to get ready for the Box kick. Im pretty Sure everyone new it was going to get charged down.
Looking Forward to BoB Dywer's take on this game...
Do Wallabie Coaches Relise that he has a Coaching Manul….
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
Commiserations boys but I have to say this is the worst Wallaby team I have ever witnessed. Sorry to say but there's no thirst for a fight in this lot.
Ref sucked big time but your players just don't do basics right. There are at least five forwards that will not make any other first tier international team which is where the problems start.You could have had any one of the International refs in that game and would still have lost in fact possible by more because most on the other NH refs would have binned your props plenty early.
Add to that absolutely woeful decision making from your stars like Genia and Folau (who seems to be unable to pass the ball or has a real dislike of Cummins).
To be beaten by a disjointed Pom team full of rookies at the start of their season after the Wobs had played together for an extended season is perplexing to say the least.
And for those who whinge about the scrums penalties get real. The Ben's are absolutely useless and Alexander deserved to be in the bin after 30 mins for finding every possible way to infringe and possibly new as yet undefined ones.
Fuck me I don't know what McKenzie can do anymore.
Ref sucked big time but your players just don't do basics right. There are at least five forwards that will not make any other first tier international team which is where the problems start.You could have had any one of the International refs in that game and would still have lost in fact possible by more because most on the other NH refs would have binned your props plenty early.
Add to that absolutely woeful decision making from your stars like Genia and Folau (who seems to be unable to pass the ball or has a real dislike of Cummins).
To be beaten by a disjointed Pom team full of rookies at the start of their season after the Wobs had played together for an extended season is perplexing to say the least.
And for those who whinge about the scrums penalties get real. The Ben's are absolutely useless and Alexander deserved to be in the bin after 30 mins for finding every possible way to infringe and possibly new as yet undefined ones.
Fuck me I don't know what McKenzie can do anymore.
flat_eric
Alfred Walker (16)
This.
churchills cigar
Peter Burge (5)
There are too many things wrong with Australian/Super rugby at too many levels. Suffice to say the wallabies(ARU, Coaches, players) must not only stop reading their own press the media and all involved must stop the ongoing fossing over and lauding of these players when in fact they are just plain awful.
I am fed up with listening to or reading in the media how good we are or how much has been accomplished. Garbage.
The wallabies are awful and it's time we started telling them so.
Then we can start addressing the myriad of player and selection problems but that us nothing short of at least a five year project. These problems are endemic and start at junior coaches and rep selectors.
I am fed up with listening to or reading in the media how good we are or how much has been accomplished. Garbage.
The wallabies are awful and it's time we started telling them so.
Then we can start addressing the myriad of player and selection problems but that us nothing short of at least a five year project. These problems are endemic and start at junior coaches and rep selectors.
Bowside
Peter Johnson (47)
There is obviously a huge problem with the wallaby forward pack. People talk about the tradeoff between a pack that is mobile and one that is good in the set piece. We've managed to develop a pack that both immobile around the field and incompetent at the set piece.
Horwill was so very shit for the first quarter of the game, but he did pick it up a bit in the latter stages of the first half, before reverting to shitness. Timani was anonymous, Mowen ineffective, and the front row not even worth talking about.
What really worries me is that Hooper has now been found out. What I mean by that is whenever a good young openside comes on the scene and they seem to dominate test matches for about a season before the opposition finds a way to nullify them. The really good ones (McCaw, Pocock, Smith) stay dominant. And over the last test series I think we have seen a failing by Hooper to stay dominant. Or maybe he is just tired after playing 80 minutes every game every week.
The other point on Hooper is that he has developed a bad habit of detaching early in the scrum. The reason he does it, is because in u19 rules in Australia you can only push the scrum 1 metre before the dominant pack has to stop pushing and get the ball out. So all the young flankers learn to push for the hit, then detach so they can see where the ball is going and get to the next breakdown first. Mowen does it as well. Fardy doesn't because he's probably spent a lot of his life in the second row.
I really hope that come next season we are not still picking the bulk of this forward pack.
Horwill was so very shit for the first quarter of the game, but he did pick it up a bit in the latter stages of the first half, before reverting to shitness. Timani was anonymous, Mowen ineffective, and the front row not even worth talking about.
What really worries me is that Hooper has now been found out. What I mean by that is whenever a good young openside comes on the scene and they seem to dominate test matches for about a season before the opposition finds a way to nullify them. The really good ones (McCaw, Pocock, Smith) stay dominant. And over the last test series I think we have seen a failing by Hooper to stay dominant. Or maybe he is just tired after playing 80 minutes every game every week.
The other point on Hooper is that he has developed a bad habit of detaching early in the scrum. The reason he does it, is because in u19 rules in Australia you can only push the scrum 1 metre before the dominant pack has to stop pushing and get the ball out. So all the young flankers learn to push for the hit, then detach so they can see where the ball is going and get to the next breakdown first. Mowen does it as well. Fardy doesn't because he's probably spent a lot of his life in the second row.
I really hope that come next season we are not still picking the bulk of this forward pack.
KOB1987
John Eales (66)
Set piece first, mobility second.
Tashara
Larry Dwyer (12)
Yes.. I was a bit emotional last night - I wont give up them either haha
Dan54
Tim Horan (67)
I agree with Blue wholeheartedly to falt_eric, I have tried to find positives with Wallabies etc for last couple of years, basically not wanting to sound like a kiwi that likes knocking Aussie rugby etc , but FFS fellas wake up and smell the fucken roses...that was bloody poor.
Don't give me bullshit that ref gave them 14 points yardah yardah, you were bloody lucky not to have props etc in bin from early in game. While ever anybody keeps carping about bloody refs they keep blinding themselves to the shit that is been dished up by all concerned. There is the old but we compete with league and AFL , bollocks,like England, NZ etc don't have league players, and noone of course plays soccer in England etc either of course!!
Stop reading the press!!!, Grand Slam be buggered, just win some tests!!!
And because papers and TV commentators have said it doesn't mean that Genia is best 9 in world, when he plays well he is good, but he has never been one I would call a great!!
Forwards need to stop playing like pussies, they seem to continually get beaten up by other tier 1 teams, I am sure they don't go out CRAVING the chance to make contact and make someone feel some hurt, thats what good packs do.
When loosing to All Blacks team that didn't play all that well, don't blow smoke up their arse and say they were wonderful, say you lost and wake your bloody ideas up!!Otherwise this shit will keep happening in follow up games.
Anyway rant over!!
FrankLind
Colin Windon (37)
That's what I thought. The last AB game was Barbarians style and lacked intensity in the forward exchanges. Nothing much could be read into it except Quade has improved.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
Whatever else are Link's failings, is it not now obvious that very poor calls regarding his own management team are one of his biggest. And the negative consequences deriving therefrom will prove exponential, not linear.
Neither the scrum nor defense have improved one iota throughout 2013. That is a woeful indictment of Blades and Scrivener.
Our forwards selections and worse skill and intensity are simply dreadful, yet a world-class forwards coach in L Fisher is not called upon, and no dedicated forwards coach has been appointed.
Our kicking is clearly sub standard and our kickers misjudge their own tactics and capabilities - every other top team rightly employs a full-time kicking coach as this crucial skill requires precise technical guidance and continuous practice supervised by expert observers and analytical bio-mechanical technology.
We're trying to be a Tier 1 team with a Tier 3 management system, plus a talent for self-boosting hype.
It'll never work.
Neither the scrum nor defense have improved one iota throughout 2013. That is a woeful indictment of Blades and Scrivener.
Our forwards selections and worse skill and intensity are simply dreadful, yet a world-class forwards coach in L Fisher is not called upon, and no dedicated forwards coach has been appointed.
Our kicking is clearly sub standard and our kickers misjudge their own tactics and capabilities - every other top team rightly employs a full-time kicking coach as this crucial skill requires precise technical guidance and continuous practice supervised by expert observers and analytical bio-mechanical technology.
We're trying to be a Tier 1 team with a Tier 3 management system, plus a talent for self-boosting hype.
It'll never work.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I think the ref was pretty influential in the outcome
HOWEVER
I think our crap play is a huge contributor to what is happening with the reffing. its more than a coincidence that the All Blacks get the rub of the refereeing green - they play well and get the subliminal accumulated benefit of the doubts. We are the opposite.
I'm not blaming the refs by any means.
For instance, all of the fringing and offside play (Both sides seemed offside more than onside at the breakdown) ought to have been dealt with by committing to the breakdown and smashing the ****s until we had dominance. Instead we just persist with either minimum numbers at the breakdown or, a lot of the time, less than the minimum. As a result everything we do starts from pressured ball.
Then we have 3 forwards interchanging passing in their own 22 while going sideways: if god had wanted them to pass he would not have made them forwards.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
The sooner this season ends the better. The first problem, in my view, is that the top players are just forced to play too many games. Think about it, they started in February, it is now bloody Novemember, and they have been playing pretty much non-stop.
The second problem is, we are just not producing enough quality players. I do not have the slightest idea what has gone wrong, a combination of factors I suppose. Maybe the swing of the pendulum. Maybe we are heading down the ladder to where the game in Australia really deserves to be, given the lack of player depth that we have always had, but have managed to hide since open professionalism.
I do know one thing, however. Unless and until ALL the game's stakeholders realise what is at stake here, and commit themselves to working together, selflessly and generously, for the sake of the game as a whole, the only way is down.
The second problem is, we are just not producing enough quality players. I do not have the slightest idea what has gone wrong, a combination of factors I suppose. Maybe the swing of the pendulum. Maybe we are heading down the ladder to where the game in Australia really deserves to be, given the lack of player depth that we have always had, but have managed to hide since open professionalism.
I do know one thing, however. Unless and until ALL the game's stakeholders realise what is at stake here, and commit themselves to working together, selflessly and generously, for the sake of the game as a whole, the only way is down.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
I think they have deteriorated over this year,and I think it is Link's tactics.
It seems no matter who wears 1-5,they play poorly.you can keep changing the names,but if the structure is flawed you are destined to continue to fail in the same positions.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
IRB Referee Manager Paddy O’Brien has chosen to take on a new challenge after seven years of excellent service in his present role. Having played an instrumental role in the advancement of elite match official preparation and performance, including the management of the referee team at two Rugby World Cups, he has decided that he requires a fresh challenge.
The process for replacing O’Brien will be announced in due course.
the selection committee commitment to promoting consistency has been reflected in the latest selections with nine elite referees appointed to the top games
They are: George Clancy (Ireland), Jérôme Garcès (France), Craig Joubert (South Africa), Nigel Owens (Wales), Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Chris Pollock (New Zealand), Romain Poite (France), Alain Rolland (Ireland) and Steve Walsh (Australia).
http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2061606.html
Read it and weep. The good news of O'Brien's departure is somewhat tempered by:
O’Brien will now focus his extensive experience into a similar role for Rugby Sevens, underlining the IRB’s commitment to Sevens ahead of Rugby making its return to the Olympic Games at Rio de Janeiro in 2016. He remains central to the match official process and is supportive of the restructure.
The process for replacing O’Brien will be announced in due course.
the selection committee commitment to promoting consistency has been reflected in the latest selections with nine elite referees appointed to the top games
They are: George Clancy (Ireland), Jérôme Garcès (France), Craig Joubert (South Africa), Nigel Owens (Wales), Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Chris Pollock (New Zealand), Romain Poite (France), Alain Rolland (Ireland) and Steve Walsh (Australia).
http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2061606.html
Read it and weep. The good news of O'Brien's departure is somewhat tempered by:
O’Brien will now focus his extensive experience into a similar role for Rugby Sevens, underlining the IRB’s commitment to Sevens ahead of Rugby making its return to the Olympic Games at Rio de Janeiro in 2016. He remains central to the match official process and is supportive of the restructure.
Iluvmyfooty
Phil Hardcastle (33)
The skill level and professionalism is there. There is enough mongrel and work rate to win these games. However, the mental strength to execute under pressure and not make the mistakes this team makes during crucial parts of the match including decision making is what's letting them down.
Look at the teams beating them. They do not make the mistakes we make or give crucial turnovers to release any pressure we might be building. Until we strengthen up this mental part of the game then we will continue to be disappointed.
Oh and get rid of Sitaleki Timani he is a complete waste of time at this level. Good performance by AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Filau. Cooper tried hard and Fardy was going Ok until he got hurt. Genia is nowhere the player he was 12 months ago and Stephen Moore looks like he should be close to stepping down.
Can someone also tell me why in the first half we saw some good flat wide passes to players running at gaps or outside their man which produced some good breaks but in the second half we just kicked and seemed to change our tactics completely?
Look at the teams beating them. They do not make the mistakes we make or give crucial turnovers to release any pressure we might be building. Until we strengthen up this mental part of the game then we will continue to be disappointed.
Oh and get rid of Sitaleki Timani he is a complete waste of time at this level. Good performance by AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Filau. Cooper tried hard and Fardy was going Ok until he got hurt. Genia is nowhere the player he was 12 months ago and Stephen Moore looks like he should be close to stepping down.
Can someone also tell me why in the first half we saw some good flat wide passes to players running at gaps or outside their man which produced some good breaks but in the second half we just kicked and seemed to change our tactics completely?
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