Australian Provincial Rugby Competition

[wamberal]

Just as a matter of interest, how many of you actually attended one or more ARC game?


The biggest single problem with the ARC was that it was just not supported by the rugby watching public. This was partly a matter of poor timing (it was held in the lead-up to the 2007 RWC, which meant that the best players were unavailable, and a lot of potential spectators were overseas for the Cup) plus of course it was blindly opposed by some of the Sydney clubs.


But when a game between some of the best young players in the country can only draw 3 or 400 spectators, it is unlikely that the competition could have survived, even if JON had not entered the picture.

 

[rugbyisfun]

A big chunk of that would be player wages wouldn't it? RUPA wouldn't be happy.

The ARU HPU expenses DO NOT include player wages (academy programs, Aussie Schools, U20 expenses etc.)
The $11,000,000 Waratahs expenses would include Waratah wages (the Annual Report didn't split up the NSWRU expenses, it was just Waratahs and Community Rugby),

 

[rugbyisfun]

Just as a matter of interest, how many of you actually attended one or more ARC game?


The biggest single problem with the ARC was that it was just not supported by the rugby watching public. This was partly a matter of poor timing (it was held in the lead-up to the 2007 RWC, which meant that the best players were unavailable, and a lot of potential spectators were overseas for the Cup) plus of course it was blindly opposed by some of the Sydney clubs.


But when a game between some of the best young players in the country can only draw 3 or 400 spectators, it is unlikely that the competition could have survived, even if JON had not entered the picture.

I went to every Fleet game. It was a given through the whole 3 day talk-fest seminar that the crowd numbers would be low. That it would run at a loss etc etc. Everyone was well aware of the financial model. A lot was riding on copping the loss, letting it grow, then Fox picking it up and then it being financially viable.

JO'N wasn't willing to let the 2003 World Cup Windfall 'War-Chest' be eaten into by the ARC. Instead we throw all the cash at the High Performance Programs that take players away from actually playing rugby, put them into little bubbles where they learn how to run around cones, dodge agility poles, drink musashi shakes, wear skins and get get massive....

 

[Slim 293]

I went to a few Vikings games...

But Canberra also had good crowds...

We tend to support a national comp...

 

[Jets]

JO'N wasn't willing to let the 2003 World Cup Windfall 'War-Chest' be eaten into by the ARC. Instead we throw all the cash at the High Performance Programs that take players away from actually playing rugby, put them into little bubbles where they learn how to run around cones, dodge agility poles, drink musashi shakes, wear skins and get get massive....

While this was the case in the past is has changed over the last few years. I know in Brisbane that Link is keen for guys to play club rugby if not in the Reds playing squad and Robbie seems to want guys to play club rugby too if not required for national duty.

 

[tigerland12]

I think the sole reason the Currie Cup and ITM work is because Rugby Union is the top sport in these countries (possibly no.2 in SA), whilst in Australia there is just too much competition from other codes. I can't see it happening anytime in the near future

 

[Jets]

That's why I think a summer 7's circuit would be a better option as it would only be up against cricket and the A-league. The great thing is that it offers something completely different to these two sports.

 

[spectator]

if you really need a post super/3n/rwc fix, peel yourself off the sofa and get down to your local club. i'm sure if club rugby started to get decent crowds in both sydney and brisbane, combined city comp wouldn't be too far off and who knows after that.

Agree!

Whilst everyone wants a provincial comp and can reel off the long terms benefits, it ain't happening anytime soon. There's not many more enjoyable things to do on a Saturday arvo then watching club rugby.

 

[wamberal]

I went to every Fleet game. It was a given through the whole 3 day talk-fest seminar that the crowd numbers would be low. That it would run at a loss etc etc. Everyone was well aware of the financial model. A lot was riding on copping the loss, letting it grow, then Fox picking it up and then it being financially viable.

JO'N wasn't willing to let the 2003 World Cup Windfall 'War-Chest' be eaten into by the ARC. Instead we throw all the cash at the High Performance Programs that take players away from actually playing rugby, put them into little bubbles where they learn how to run around cones, dodge agility poles, drink musashi shakes, wear skins and get get massive....

Nobody expected games to draw 200 or 300 paying spectators. Nobody. I recall Flowers saying something to the effect that average crowds of 3000 would be acceptable. Did any single game draw 3000?

 

[Lee Grant]

Just as a matter of interest, how many of you actually attended one or more ARC game?

Went to every game at North Sydney Oval - and Gosford to see my Rays team. Saw a couple of the Rams games at Parramatta. Watched all the TV games and (ahem) "acquired" video of games not on TV that only had the officials chat as the commentary. I doubt if too many people outside the rugby industry saw as many games as I did.

I don't know that I'd do that year after year but I had been waiting for for so long and I loved it, just loved it, and sucked up as much as I could.

I doubt if we will see the ARC in the form that we had then. The old fart clubs were right: the competition couldn't sustain itself.

The other alternative, as others have indicated, is to have a national club competition, wherein the strongest clubs (in playing ability and financial strength) start off the comp and others join it later on in promotion and relegation system - provided that the club to be promoted passes a financial test.

This will seem to be very harsh but it's what they did in England and their domestic comp is going OK.

The comp will be Sydney and Brisbane-centric at first with the Vikings from Canberra, but a way should be found to have a Perth and Melbourne team involved. The Force are already involved in moves to have an east coast presence so their team could be an extension of that and there should be a Melbourne team that could be given a bit of leeway until they get stronger locally. Maybe they could use players from other Oz clubs not involved in the comp provided that not more than two from one club could be recruited.

It would affect the Sydney and Brisbane comps but the 2nd grade teams of the clubs in the national comp could move up to play in first grade.

It will be a bit Darwinian as clubs that can't compete will drop out or never get in to start with because they don't have financial clout, but it may be the price we have to pay to get a semi-pro domestic national competition started up again. There are lots of holes in the idea and I probably know them as well as anybody, but if we don't do things differently we will be moaning about it 20 years from now too.
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[centreman]

Nobody expected games to draw 200 or 300 paying spectators. Nobody. I recall Flowers saying something to the effect that average crowds of 3000 would be acceptable. Did any single game draw 3000?

Yes. I went to the Sydney Fleet v Western Sydney Rams game at North Sydney Oval and there was a crowd of over 3000, a great atmosphere and a great game of rugby.I also went to a couple of Rams games at Parramatta Stadium where the official crowds were in the low 2000's. I think some of you guys are forgetting how popular the ARC was for a fledgling idea.

 

[rugbyisfun]

Yes. I went to the Sydney Fleet v Western Sydney Rams game at North Sydney Oval and there was a crowd of over 3000, a great atmosphere and a great game of rugby.I also went to a couple of Rams games at Parramatta Stadium where the official crowds were in the low 2000's. I think some of you guys are forgetting how popular the ARC was for a fledgling idea.

No disagreement from me regarding the popularity. Not one (Club) rugby fan that I went to watch games with or chatted to about (ARC) over a beer thought it wasn't a winner.

It all came down to the $$$ and the willingness to take a punt on something that was going to serve so many different purposes (Tier 3 comp, expsose more players to better rugby etc etc).

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

An APC or ARC seems unlikely in the near future regardless how much we'd like to see it. What I would like to see is the development of the Pacific Rugby Championship from this year expand and form a viable Super Rugby reserve grade as such. Run it in conjunction with Super Rugby, we don't necessarily need a stand alone competition to run after Super Rugby as it is our flagship competition. It would help develop talent by exposing the next tier to a higher level of play and provide competition for spots in the main squad. Would also allow returning players to play themselves back into form.

If the ARU were to re-introduce a national competition, I'd like it to be the ARS. I thought that was a fantastic grassroots representative initiative.

 

[Empire]

I agree with LG's sentiments - a premier national club competition.

There is a lot of history attached to local clubs, and this should be harnessed when considering a national competition.

Promotion and relegation would be a key component.

Aside from this, coverage via the ABC (or a commercial channel for advertisements) or the like would need to be expanded to cover at least 2-3 games in my opinion. That said, I have no idea how the Shute shield rates on tv and Iview, so that may be optimistic.

I'll continue to dream on.

 

[TOCC]

Went to every game at North Sydney Oval - and Gosford to see my Rays team. Saw a couple of the Rams games at Parramatta. Watched all the TV games and (ahem) "acquired" video of games not on TV that only had the officials chat as the commentary. I doubt if too many people outside the rugby industry saw as many games as I did.

I don't know that I'd do that year after year but I had been waiting for for so long and I loved it, just loved it, and sucked up as much as I could.

I doubt if we will see the ARC in the form that we had then. The old fart clubs were right: the competition couldn't sustain itself.

The other alternative, as others have indicated, is to have a national club competition, wherein the strongest clubs (in playing ability and financial strength) start off the comp and others join it later on in promotion and relegation system - provided that the club to be promoted passes a financial test.

This will seem to be very harsh but it's what they did in England and their domestic comp is going OK.

The comp will be Sydney and Brisbane-centric at first with the Vikings from Canberra, but a way should be found to have a Perth and Melbourne team involved. The Force are already involved in moves to have an east coast presence so their team could be an extension of that and there should be a Melbourne team that could be given a bit of leeway until they get stronger locally. Maybe they could use players from other Oz clubs not involved in the comp provided that not more than two from one club could be recruited.

It would affect the Sydney and Brisbane comps but the 2nd grade teams of the clubs in the national comp could move up to play in first grade.

It will be a bit Darwinian as clubs that can't compete will drop out or never get in to start with because they don't have financial clout, but it may be the price we have to pay to get a semi-pro domestic national competition started up again. There are lots of holes in the idea and I probably know them as well as anybody, but if we don't do things differently we will be moaning about it 20 years from now too.
.

precisely, Australian Rugby doesnt have the financial resources to just create a new competition with new teams..One of the major reasons for the failure of the ARC was due to the disconnect between the new teams and the club rugby teams..

For a financially viable model, utilizing existing clubs in the Brisbane and Sydney comps is the most economical model, it may alienate some clubs who cant afford the requirements of a national competition, but shit, that's a unfortunate byproduct of people demanding a national comp. Think of the VFL evolving to the AFL or the NSWRL evolving to the current NRL.