Australian Rugby / RA

[KOB1987]

See that's a reasonable attitude to come into the idea of this with.

Replacing Professional rugby with a domestic club competition would probably work as laid out in many places.

But there seems to be... a failure to acknowledge that it's not smashing together the SS and the QPR, throwing money at it, and letting it rip. There will be mergers, there will be relocations, there will be cuts. There will be seemingly "unreasonable" favour shown to certain "growth" regions or former "representative" teams. There will be redistribution of junior zones.

And there will be a ripping away of whatever "community" connection remains for the High Performance arms of the Successful franchisees. There'll be no 3rd or 4th XVs or 2nd or 3rd Colts. Or Masters teams. Potential no women's teams or 2nd XVs either. Colts players are either constantly understrength with the U20 RC and JWC, or have an absurdly stop start season. Teams will play at grounds where they can make money through ticketing, sponsorship and selling Corporate/event ticketing, not at the local oval. A lot of what the "grassroots" community values is going to be lost along the way.

I think we could live with all of that though. Say there are 5 SS clubs that go pro, you’d probably have Colleagues, Drummoyne, Mosman take 3 of those spots which are basically the more social versions of Easts, Wests and Norths anyway. Similar Waverley/Randwick and Forest/Manly. Those clubs would absorb the non pro players. We would probably, temporarily at least, lose the lower division of subbies while the code rebuilds. We have to play the long game here though.

 

[Derpus]

I wish they'd just done this before we signed back up for two dud years of Super Rugby pacific. Maybe that interim step was necessary for continued TV deals but... what a shit time it's been.

 

[Wallaby Man]

Is the support really there at the community level? We had a QPrem semi last week with only a few hundred people in attendance. That’s a pretty big game to only attract such a crowd. Bare in mind it’s going to cost 10s of millions to properly upgrade grounds to appropriate stadiums, maintain professional standard pitches, invest in high performance gyms and that’s just to attract talented youngsters to the game so they don’t go running to other sports that offer at least the minimum standard required for a high performance environment.

If someone can show it can be done then I’m on board, I just don’t think many here understand the kind of investment needed to get this even remotely close to replacing Super Rugby. We haven’t even talked about paying the players yet either. Unless the players are earning $100k+ (minus rookie contracts) you aren’t going to be attracting anything remotely talented enough to compete. People would either choose a different sport, or those especially with working class backgrounds will choose to start their careers earlier. You can earn a lot more been a tradie than $60-70k a year, if there was a 10-12 team comp.

 

[KOB1987]

An equity injection is imminent by the sounds of it, presumably some of that would be to get this comp going, otherwise Waugh would not have even mentioned it.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Is the support really there at the community level? We had a QPrem semi last week with only a few hundred people in attendance. That’s a pretty big game to only attract such a crowd. Bare in mind it’s going to cost 10s of millions to properly upgrade grounds to appropriate stadiums, maintain professional standard pitches, invest in high performance gyms and that’s just to attract talented youngsters to the game so they don’t go running to other sports that offer at least the minimum standard required for a high performance environment.

If someone can show it can be done then I’m on board, I just don’t think many here understand the kind of investment needed to get this even remotely close to replacing Super Rugby. We haven’t even talked about paying the players yet either. Unless the players are earning $100k+ (minus rookie contracts) you aren’t going to be attracting anything remotely talented enough to compete. People would either choose a different sport, or those especially with working class backgrounds will choose to start their careers earlier. You can earn a lot more been a tradie than $60-70k a year, if there was a 10-12 team comp.

None of the current club grounds would be used outside of being primarily training bases. So that would remove the need to redevelop/upgrade grounds.

 

[Wallaby Man]

None of the current club grounds would be used outside of being primarily training bases. So that would remove the need to redevelop/upgrade grounds.

Well they can’t all play out of Suncorp, the SFS and the stadium in W Syd. There is already a boat load of tenants at these places and the minimum attendance to break even is more than these clubs would attract. Brothers, GPS etc aren’t attracting more fans than the Reds. You’d be swimming in debt from stadium rent from accumulated losses over a season. So they would essentially need to play in their own grounds. Can’t even use Ballymoore as frequently as liked as it too has tenants moving in that the government has essentially paid for.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Well they can’t all play out of Suncorp, the SFS and the stadium in W Syd. There is already a boat load of tenants at these places and the minimum attendance to break even is more than these clubs would attract. Brothers, GPS etc aren’t attracting more fans than the Reds. You’d be swimming in debt from stadium rent from accumulated losses over a season. So they would essentially need to play in their own grounds. Can’t even use Ballymoore as frequently as liked as it too has tenants moving in that the government has essentially paid for.

I'd imagine if any of the clubs or group of clubs in say the North of Sydney successfully bid they'd look to play out of say Brookvale. Or a Western Sydney team could rotate between CommBank, Penrith and Campbelltown. Or perhaps bids come out of nowhere for the likes of Newcastle, Wollongong or the Central Coast.

Also, there's a reason why the Tahs and Reds play in the stadiums they do and that's stadium deals. They actually get paid to play there. Similar deals could be made available for other teams.

 

[hoggy]

Well they can’t all play out of Suncorp, the SFS and the stadium in W Syd. There is already a boat load of tenants at these places and the minimum attendance to break even is more than these clubs would attract. Brothers, GPS etc aren’t attracting more fans than the Reds. You’d be swimming in debt from stadium rent from accumulated losses over a season. So they would essentially need to play in their own grounds. Can’t even use Ballymoore as frequently as liked as it too has tenants moving in that the government has essentially paid for.

We are always looking at this was from the top down regards costs. Everything you say is right, however you have to be realistic and start at a level that the game can afford. Firstly you would start with a maximum of 6 teams. 10/12 is a long term option, may never be reached.

Ultimately the wages paid will be linked to what the competition can afford, currently the game is in debt, so they can't afford those wages as is.

If you get the basic structure right then all of those things will eventually find there own level, that is sustainable.

 

[Highlander35]

Well they can’t all play out of Suncorp, the SFS and the stadium in W Syd. There is already a boat load of tenants at these places and the minimum attendance to break even is more than these clubs would attract. Brothers, GPS etc aren’t attracting more fans than the Reds. You’d be swimming in debt from stadium rent from accumulated losses over a season. So they would essentially need to play in their own grounds. Can’t even use Ballymoore as frequently as liked as it too has tenants moving in that the government has essentially paid for.

IDK about Brisbane suburban grounds, but places like North Sydney Oval regularly host First Class and List A Blues Fixtures. And IDK how acrimonious the league teams would be, but places like Leichardt and Redcliffe would surely be options given the limited fixtures they host?

 

[Wilson]

IDK about Brisbane suburban grounds, but places like North Sydney Oval regularly host First Class and List A Blues Fixtures. And IDK how acrimonious the league teams would be, but places like Leichardt and Redcliffe would surely be options given the limited fixtures they host?

Can't speak to Sydney but Redcliffe would likely be a dud as far as Brisbane is concerned. I doubt you'd get enough there to cover the cost of turning the lights on. Would be better off going to the sunshine coast proper at that stage and engaging the crowd who showed up when the NRL relocated during covid.

 

[hoggy]

Can't speak to Sydney but Redcliffe would likely be a dud as far as Brisbane is concerned. I doubt you'd get enough there to cover the cost of turning the lights on. Would be better off going to the sunshine coast proper at that stage and engaging the crowd who showed up when the NRL relocated during covid.

Sunshine Coast Stadium would be great for the odd game or two, the NRL play 2/4 a year here now. Union has a decent presence on the coast and the stadium is a proper rugby ground, so 4/5,000 looks okay.
My understanding is they are also looking at further upgrades for the 3032 Olympics.

 

[Highlander35]

Sunshine Coast Stadium would be great for the odd game or two, the NRL play 2/4 a year here now. Union has a decent presence on the coast and the stadium is a proper rugby ground, so 4/5,000 looks okay.
My understanding is they are also looking at further upgrades for the 3032 Olympics.

Everything might be underwater by then

 

[Wallaby Man]

The moment we start suggesting places that aren’t the traditional homes of these clubs or areas like the Sunshine Coast, aren’t we just bastardizing the competition already which is what a lot of the complaints are from the pro club voices? Also Brothers vs Randwick on the Sunshine Coast would be lucky to attract 1000 people.

 

[RugbyReg]

Just play at Ballymore.

 

[Rugby follower]

Just play at Ballymore.

@RugbyReg what is the plan for the Eastern Stand at Ballymore? Is this being rebuilt as well?

 

[PhilClinton]

Well they can’t all play out of Suncorp, the SFS and the stadium in W Syd. There is already a boat load of tenants at these places and the minimum attendance to break even is more than these clubs would attract. Brothers, GPS etc aren’t attracting more fans than the Reds. You’d be swimming in debt from stadium rent from accumulated losses over a season. So they would essentially need to play in their own grounds. Can’t even use Ballymoore as frequently as liked as it too has tenants moving in that the government has essentially paid for.

Engagement levels would increase if those clubs were playing in a professional competition. Not saying they’d get 20k+ each week but definitely more than a few hundred…

The same way the QRL Redcliffe Dolphins would never have sold out Suncorp, but the NRL Dolphins are able to draw bigger crowds.

 

[Adam84]

. Can’t even use Ballymoore as frequently as liked as it too has tenants moving in that the government has essentially paid for.

hardly. Brisbane Roar are playing 4 W-League games there this season during the summer , that’s it.

 

[wamberal99]

Just play at Ballymore.

I remember the good old days when a game was televised every week from Ballymore.

 

[RugbyReg]

@RugbyReg what is the plan for the Eastern Stand at Ballymore? Is this being rebuilt as well?

yep - that's the plan

 

[half]

Well well well, discussing whether an Australian Rugby professional based competition can replace Super Rugby.

I argued this case since the late 90's, I stopped arguing maybe three maybe four years ago, so many arguments, so many disagreements. Simply gave up and the new boys in charge were making all the right noises and by and large seem competent.

Its not that I have changed my mind, its just I think its to late, in state schools rugby is almost non existent, in private especially AFL but Soccer to is making mega ground. Add this to the perceived concussion issue for parents to deal with.

With so few games and the total dominance of AFL, NRL & Cricket, all other codes are struggling, and behind the dominate codes we have Basketball, Netball & Soccer which are the codes with the highest number of players.

We are on Stan, from Fin Review. [ much more in the link but some key things copied]

https://www.afr.com/companies/media-and-marketing/netflix-loses-subscribers-in-australia-for-first-time-since-2015-20230825-p5dziq#:~:text=The survey found there was,after many services hiked prices.

""" Netflix had 6.1 million subscribers, down 3 per cent, while Amazon Prime Video was up 9 per cent to 4.5 million. Disney+ crept up 1 per cent to 3.1 million, and Stan rose 2 per cent to 2.6 million. Foxtel’s Binge rose 22 per cent to 1.5 million, Paramount+ rose 41 per cent to 1.5 million and Kayo Sports jumped 8 per cent to 1.4 million. These figures include unpaid subscriptions."""

We lack fields, we lack coaches, we lack players at junior and school level. TBH those streaming numbers above don't fill me with great confidence.

As each year has gone by we have slipped a little more, the warnings often attacked, have gone largely at junior level unheeded. One of the warning of a lack of an Australian Professional competition was the fall in both junior player numbers, but equally important was the quality of players where the better players were off to AFL, League & Soccer.

I love the SS, and my Woodies team is all but a memory for most in Eastwood today.

Maybe the WC can drive some people over, but there is also a risk, if the RWC does not meet or struggles to meet expectations following on from the FIFA WWC unexpected success, then it indicates where future sponsor investment will go.

Personally, I think the idea is great, but we are still a long way off actually getting a concept in place, but even then we have left it to long,