HooperPocockSmith
Bill Watson (15)
How about you come up with some objections to my arguments rather than calling me dumb?
Australian Rugby / RA
- Thread starter Dave Beat
- Start date
Members Section
John Thornett (49)
Why dont we get rid of the tahs, no one in sydney even goes to bankwest for the wallabies let alone tahs games. they have only been relevant 1 season in the past 30 & the local govt. is the least supportive of all 5
HooperPocockSmith
Bill Watson (15)
We can joke about the Tahs, but the reality is the vast majority of our talent comes from NSW and QLD.
Members Section
John Thornett (49)
games not supported in that city though
or why dont we just get rid of the gold jersey wear blue & red hoops & any of us will just go support the country of our heritage & then you might actually fill your stadium because you dont go
PhilClinton
Geoff Shaw (53)
So what are the thoughts on this whole Eddie and Japan saga?
He's come out in the presser and absolute shut it down, going as far as to say he would leave the presser if the questions continued. One journo in particular pushed him on it a few times and needed to be sat down.
Surely there is too much smoke on this for it to be totally false? I first saw it reported on Fox Sports but surely even they wouldn't plant a false seed like that just to cause shit.
He's come out in the presser and absolute shut it down, going as far as to say he would leave the presser if the questions continued. One journo in particular pushed him on it a few times and needed to be sat down.
Surely there is too much smoke on this for it to be totally false? I first saw it reported on Fox Sports but surely even they wouldn't plant a false seed like that just to cause shit.
Rebel man
Jim Lenehan (48)
Here is one super rugby AU rated better than super rugby trans Tasman so those All Blacks clearly don’t have that much of a lure
Wallaby Man
Trevor Allan (34)
Let’s be honest here, there has been cracks in the rugby foundations for 15-20yrs. I’d argue the Force getting dumped was the first sign of a part of the wall breaking away and not just cracking. It was an absolute disaster that exasperated the issues further, then newscorp attacks, etc. Dropping teams is not the issue. We have to look at everything and every stakeholder needs to simply shut up and accept that their patch isn’t going to look how it currently does to move on.
Our school boys comps need to start playing more rugby. There is elite junior athletes that join the program in yr9 for example and end up dominating but by the time they reach the pros have around 50 matches of rugby experience. It’s just not enough. They are clearly the best athlete and a class above the rest, but haven’t figured the game out and having to be taught while a pro. But equally not contracting them means we end up with c grade athletic talent.
Our club comps are eroding away. I have just returned to the town I am from. 15yrs ago there was 4 divisions with around 7 teams in each. Now that is cut in half and with around 5 teams in each.
Our elite club comps are just as much an issue as the Super Rugby teams. They have fought tooth and nail to resist collaboration with our elite end. No wonder there is a huge huge gap in quality from pros to semi pros. They have consistently slapped the hand away that’s been trying to take the players they are harboring to the next step. So it’s all about the welfare of the club and not the player. Let alone a large proportion of them have persisted with an ideology of run and all times, kicking is bad, don’t take the points etc. which is terrible for teaching fundamentals and how the game is played at the higher end.
Our Super Rugby sides (all of them) couldn’t organise a root in a brothel. Continually played self protectionist mode with some even refusing to share basic fitness information. Our system at the pros also plays the least amount of pro rugby in the world. Will Skelton who is arguably our best player now, played 33 games last season. That’s double what Super Rugby players are playing. No wonder he’s able to adapt better on the field. We have guys that are wider squad players that stick around for 3/4 years but only play 10 pro games, and then they go play club rugby where the style isn’t remotely like pro rugby and the fundamentals are lackadaisical. No wonder we have players that go overseas and improve. Then they come back and decline again.
Then the wallabies is just treated like a money grabbing machine. It’s always the toughest of toughest schedules to maximize money, it’s always fighting against obvious economics and not selecting certain players, everything is a shambles.
Cutting clubs isn’t going to solve this, including more clubs isn’t going to solve this. Everyone needs to sit down and swallow their pride and accept they have got it wrong. That’s everyone from the old farts holding onto an ideology of yesteryear of ‘how the game is to be played’. That’s the elite clubs realising in 2023 their role is just to provide the best opportunities for players to become pros, that’s for the Super Rugby clubs to stop the state v state nonsense and that’s for the wallabies to accept where they are in the world and stop talking dribble from the top “we can win this World Cup” etc.
Rant over
Our school boys comps need to start playing more rugby. There is elite junior athletes that join the program in yr9 for example and end up dominating but by the time they reach the pros have around 50 matches of rugby experience. It’s just not enough. They are clearly the best athlete and a class above the rest, but haven’t figured the game out and having to be taught while a pro. But equally not contracting them means we end up with c grade athletic talent.
Our club comps are eroding away. I have just returned to the town I am from. 15yrs ago there was 4 divisions with around 7 teams in each. Now that is cut in half and with around 5 teams in each.
Our elite club comps are just as much an issue as the Super Rugby teams. They have fought tooth and nail to resist collaboration with our elite end. No wonder there is a huge huge gap in quality from pros to semi pros. They have consistently slapped the hand away that’s been trying to take the players they are harboring to the next step. So it’s all about the welfare of the club and not the player. Let alone a large proportion of them have persisted with an ideology of run and all times, kicking is bad, don’t take the points etc. which is terrible for teaching fundamentals and how the game is played at the higher end.
Our Super Rugby sides (all of them) couldn’t organise a root in a brothel. Continually played self protectionist mode with some even refusing to share basic fitness information. Our system at the pros also plays the least amount of pro rugby in the world. Will Skelton who is arguably our best player now, played 33 games last season. That’s double what Super Rugby players are playing. No wonder he’s able to adapt better on the field. We have guys that are wider squad players that stick around for 3/4 years but only play 10 pro games, and then they go play club rugby where the style isn’t remotely like pro rugby and the fundamentals are lackadaisical. No wonder we have players that go overseas and improve. Then they come back and decline again.
Then the wallabies is just treated like a money grabbing machine. It’s always the toughest of toughest schedules to maximize money, it’s always fighting against obvious economics and not selecting certain players, everything is a shambles.
Cutting clubs isn’t going to solve this, including more clubs isn’t going to solve this. Everyone needs to sit down and swallow their pride and accept they have got it wrong. That’s everyone from the old farts holding onto an ideology of yesteryear of ‘how the game is to be played’. That’s the elite clubs realising in 2023 their role is just to provide the best opportunities for players to become pros, that’s for the Super Rugby clubs to stop the state v state nonsense and that’s for the wallabies to accept where they are in the world and stop talking dribble from the top “we can win this World Cup” etc.
Rant over
Left-Winger
Frank Row (1)
I don't mean to put a cat among the pigeons with this, but just want to put this out there.
I don't buy the claim that Australia doesn't produce enough (good) players to sustain five professional franchises. The problem is not that we lack the players, it's that we lack the money to keep the players.
Australians play in clubs all over the world. Go onto the Wiki pages for English, French, and Japanese clubs and look how many Aussies there are. We are the third biggest producer of international rugby talent, after SA and NZ.
Last year I spent a bit of time recording all the Aussie players in Super, Top 14, URC, Rugby League One (Japan), Premiership (England), etc. For a bit of fun I made 12 clubs and allocated players to them based on their club / school loyalties (to the best of my knowledge). I am not advocating for the creation of this competition. We cannot afford it. But it does illustrate the broader point—there is plenty of talent in Australia.
This sheet is very rough, particularly in terms of formatting. I never finished it. But I think it gets the point across: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zBXnwKN_nlJBfge17EVNORkn7gLxqniGiqwXuhJTisE/edit?usp=sharing
This is, of course, not a definitive argument in favour of the five franchise model. They are, after all, only as good as the players they can afford, and in a context of scarce resources we may need to triage. But I am really sick of hearing the claim that we lack the talent. The question is how we can inject more money into the game and get our development systems and talent identification sorted. Unfortunately we are in a death spiral right now—bad performance --> lack of interest --> lack of revenue --> lack of talent --> more bad performances. No Tattarang or Private Equity coming to our rescue.
It'd be great if we could get a bit of money from the rich people we're constantly told are the games' only fans...
I don't buy the claim that Australia doesn't produce enough (good) players to sustain five professional franchises. The problem is not that we lack the players, it's that we lack the money to keep the players.
Australians play in clubs all over the world. Go onto the Wiki pages for English, French, and Japanese clubs and look how many Aussies there are. We are the third biggest producer of international rugby talent, after SA and NZ.
Last year I spent a bit of time recording all the Aussie players in Super, Top 14, URC, Rugby League One (Japan), Premiership (England), etc. For a bit of fun I made 12 clubs and allocated players to them based on their club / school loyalties (to the best of my knowledge). I am not advocating for the creation of this competition. We cannot afford it. But it does illustrate the broader point—there is plenty of talent in Australia.
This sheet is very rough, particularly in terms of formatting. I never finished it. But I think it gets the point across: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zBXnwKN_nlJBfge17EVNORkn7gLxqniGiqwXuhJTisE/edit?usp=sharing
This is, of course, not a definitive argument in favour of the five franchise model. They are, after all, only as good as the players they can afford, and in a context of scarce resources we may need to triage. But I am really sick of hearing the claim that we lack the talent. The question is how we can inject more money into the game and get our development systems and talent identification sorted. Unfortunately we are in a death spiral right now—bad performance --> lack of interest --> lack of revenue --> lack of talent --> more bad performances. No Tattarang or Private Equity coming to our rescue.
It'd be great if we could get a bit of money from the rich people we're constantly told are the games' only fans...
Highlander35
Andrew Slack (58)
If you want to cut, you cut, but you can't expect the Junior Rep sides to continue without the professional counterparts. All you'll get is a Digby, a Samu or a Valetini every 5 or 6 years.
If back to the 90s is what you want, go back to the 90s, but the world has moved on.
If back to the 90s is what you want, go back to the 90s, but the world has moved on.
Wallaby Man
Trevor Allan (34)
Who gives a crap. A large portion of the crusaders isn’t from Canterbury, nobody from the Denver Nuggets is from Denver, is there anyone from Manchester in Man City. We need to get over this pettiness. It’s silly thinking that’s holding us back, it’s 2023 and the sporting environment is incredibly professional. Let’s embrace what that truly means instead of this half pregnant mentality of my tribe v yours, but also trying to run high performance programs.
The French and English clubs aren’t concerned about which town the players are from.
Members Section
John Thornett (49)
Exactly, over 10 yrs we had Lloyd Johansson, Christian & Digby. We have 3 in the squad currently.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
HooperPocockSmith
Bill Watson (15)
Hahaha.
I think it's a little silly to suggest that a team shouldn't be based where the largest number of registered players live.
Brisbane and Sydney are a no-brainer.
Highlander35
Andrew Slack (58)
Omar Comin'
Chilla Wilson (44)
The main objection is that you turn 2 fan bases off the game forever.
A middle ground I can see is that you centrally contract say 60 players (top 4 in each position) and condense them into 3 teams (who can't recruit foreign players), while setting up the other 2 teams (most likely the Force and Rebels) to be a mix of locally developed players and foreign players - or other Australian players that miss out on central contracts. That could be adapted as depth improves, and you'd allow exceptions for WA and VIC developed players that earn central contracts and prefer to stick with their local teams.
Brumby Runner
David Wilson (68)
Not so sure KOB. Given that the Brumbies could have played Mack more and that he went looking for greener pastures, had a centralised system said to him, "here's the contract, now off to Perth (or Melbourne) you go", I reckon he'd still hjave opted for Ireland. And unfortunately there will be more of that I believe if the central organisation tries to move players against their will.
Wallaby Man
Trevor Allan (34)
Nobody anywhere has said seriously get rid of a team from QLD or NSW. What a joke comment.
Happy to be corrected where I mentioned this
HooperPocockSmith
Bill Watson (15)
It was mentioned by another poster. My apologies for confusing you two.
Brumby Runner
David Wilson (68)
Almost like a forerunner to what might happen if RA sell off part of the game to PE, or hock it up to the gills in the belief that the golden egg will come through in 2025 or 2027. And all the time the game continues to lose supporters at both Super Rugby and Wallaby levels.
I am one of those who believes we are doomed to deteriorate more the longer we hitch our wagon to NZ in Super Rugby.
HooperPocockSmith
Bill Watson (15)
The location of the teams isn't an issue. It's the financial viability of supporting 5 teams with a decent level of depth.