Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2013

[Inside Shoulder]

Do the statistics validate that your chances of selection (in NSW) increases if you go to a GPS school?
What are your chances of representing Australia if you attend a public school in NSW?

According to Hugh Jarse table above there are 17 GPS boys in the 46 man squad (36%). There are 2 boys from High Schools (4%).
12.6% of all GPS 1st XV players (including high, tas and grammar) make the Oz or Oz A sides.
Of the schools actually competing in 1st XV in 2013 the figure is 18.8% of the 6 teams got picked.
Of course one needs to define "high school" boys for reasons which shall not be mentioned in this thread, and there is 1 boy from CAS who was GPS until this year and who made Oz Schools last year - I have not included him in the GPS tally.
I'm interested to hear if there is anyone who thinks that a GPS boy was picked who didn't deserve it.

 

[rugboy]

Roar, as obviously one of Charlie Taylor's parents/relatives I hope you celebrated his great performance in making the NSW 1s team, in making the final and obviously being part of the winning team. While non selection is a part of sport and life there any so many positives to celebrate this week that I hope that is the focus for the family.

In regards his performance this week I do agree it was disappointing that he didn't see much ball and I feel for him as I don't recall him being on the back of a single back line movement yesterday, in fact I only remember him touching the ball once.Whether is was part of a coaching plan or not we probably won't know although as you pointed out it did seem to be the trend for the week with exception to the WA game where I think the opposition helped the cause. Obviously with such a talented back line and all the boys being so effective in their own right with ball in hand it was always going to be tight to get an even share. Overall IMHO he couldn't be selected for either team as he didn't contribute (through no fault of his own).

In regards others comments about the "league" boys, watching all the games they are all unique players who could have long rugby careers if they dedicate themselves and continue to work hard. The talk of physical maturity and others catching up is an interesting debate. I overheard a gentlemen mention yesterday that the NSW 1s centres were bigger and heavier than the wallaby centres and the match of the Lions. Taane as mentioned has a great fend and feet. Tepai produced more bone rattling hits than anyone all week and his crash ball running was always destructive, watching north last night there is always a place for the bigger stronger athlete. Joey organises as well as anyone and the 2s lost the momentum they were gathering once he was replaced. All three have elements of their game to work on but what 17/18 year old doesn't. I hope all boys find the opportunities which see them remain in rugby.

That being said should they go to Cairns this week, play well and become dual international schoolboys and ultimately end up in League I wish them all the best also and look forward to the next young athlete who will see his non selection this week as a motivating challenge and step into the breach left by any of these boys.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Roar, as obviously one of Charlie Taylor's parents/relatives I hope you celebrated his great performance in making the NSW 1s team, in making the final and obviously being part of the winning team. While non selection is a part of sport and life there any so many positives to celebrate this week that I hope that is the focus for the family.

So this kid was a winger on the end of the NSW 1s backline?
The only one's who were prepared to pass the ball were Deegan and Jones so its not too promising if you're the other winger.

 

[Rugby Mum]

Twelve teams in both divisions 276 plus kids in tournament, 46 selected in Australian Schoolboys and Australian A leaves 230 disappointed kids, 460 parents dealing with disappointed kids. What an experience they can take to club or school rugby as a result. Playing rugby is more than being picked in these teams, mates, skills fun just to name a few. Passion will take kids further as well.
Congrats to all selected, and to those disappointed boys, you represented your state and should be proud.

 

[Cattledog]

Can anyone north of the border fill us in on the current state of scrummaging in the QLD schools & Junior comps? I thought that this aspect of QLD play was particularly poor thru the week. Especially in the loss to NSW 2.

IMHO The QLD 1 front row has been given till the September Aust A matches to improve in this core aspect of the game & thus redeem themselves before the final selections for the UK tour. In short you simply can't take props & hookers to the UK who can't scrummage!

As the Lions series has shown us "dominate the scrum & dominate the game!"

 

[strokeside]

love your new avatar photo Hugh, although I thought you would have more arse, because in that one you only look like a Half Arse.

 

[sootyanddave]

Just like some other Schoolboys who are also with NRL Clubs who played and got picked. They are all Schoolboys are entitled to compete and represent their school and they enjoy playing Union as well.

Sounds great if they were still in Primary School,but they are not.
This is an important development pathway for players hoping for a career.
For people to take up these spots,who are already committed to another code,because they can, is wrong.

 

[sootyanddave]

Do the statistics validate that your chances of selection (in NSW) increases if you go to a GPS school?
What are your chances of representing Australia if you attend a public school in NSW?

Pretty high if you move from your local High School to a GPS School at the age of 15 or 16!

 

[Lee Grant]

Chris F-S from Queensland and H Roach from NSW were selected as 16 YO's.

Edit: and Andrew Kellaway from NSW (thanks George).

Edit: another snout has advised to add H Jones from NSW.

Chris Feauai-Sautia started for Oz Schools at 15.

Curtis Browning started for Oz A Schools at 15 and for Oz Schools at 16.
.

 

[Lee Grant]

Pretty high if you move from your local High School to a GPS School at the age of 15 or 16!

Their chances will be better.

On average, such a player will get better coaching in a GPS school and improve their S&C and rugby there.

In a parallel universe the same player who stayed at his local school will not be as good a rugby player – on average – when the trials and Oz Champs are on.

That is the plus side of GPS Schools recruiting such players, but we all know the negatives.
.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

love your new avatar photo Hugh, although I thought you would have more arse, because in that one you only look like a Half Arse.

Emergency Avatar change was needed at 3/4 time in the test last night.

Didn't have sufficient time to get the proportions correct.

 

[strokeside]

Emergency Avatar change was needed at 3/4 time in the test last night.

Didn't have sufficient time to get the proportions correct.

Even that was a bit late, I think that game was gone at the kick off.

 

[Roar]

So this kid was a winger on the end of the NSW 1s backline?
The only one's who were prepared to pass the ball were Deegan and Jones so its not too promising if you're the other winger.

Sorry Inside but I watched all the games and I like to support the Smaller Schools with their lads playing. This Winger was playing out of position to begin with as he is a natural right but was playing on the left as the coach wanted it that way. He played well with the limited opportunities that came out his way, but still managed to score in nearly every game. Including Monday's game where in the first 5 minutes he scored a beautiful solo length field try and 4 defenders missed him, he then unselfishly made a beautiful break and instead of running over the defender to score himself, he passed it to Kellaway to get the try. This same lad smashed Kellaway going over to score 3 tries against Scots College last year in a Trial game with his School Team.

Union don't want this lad and others and that's fine but its Union's loss and NRL Gain. This lad will be training with 1st grade NRL next year and will be having a wonderful time. His Manager, I have been told has already been fighting off other NRL Clubs that want this Athletic, fast, strong winger as this lad can also play numerous positions in the backline.
He has his photo up already for his NRL Club and is in the starting team for his Holden Cup.

His Disappointment might have vanished slightly now as the Beautiful hot Barney, sunny weather in Cairns, combined with first class Accommodation I hear and a Beautiful Swimming Pool and playing NRL for Australian Selection up there and fitting in with his team doing some sight seeing, sounds too good.

The Australia Teams have been now been picked. No use going over old ground. Wishing both Teams Success and all the Lads as well.

 

[Monday's Expert]

Can anyone north of the border fill us in on the current state of scrummaging in the QLD schools & Junior comps? I thought that this aspect of QLD play was particularly poor thru the week. Especially in the loss to NSW 2.

IMHO The QLD 1 front row has been given till the September Aust A matches to improve in this core aspect of the game & thus redeem themselves before the final selections for the UK tour. In short you simply can't take props & hookers to the UK who can't scrummage!

As the Lions series has shown us "dominate the scrum & dominate the game!"

Cattle dog, it is hard to comment on scrummaging north of the border because the Q GPS comp hasn't started yet. The AIC games I saw were underwhelming for me in this facet of the match. IMHO the issues the Wallabies face at scrum time are direct result of the fact U19 scrums are being depowered into farce by U19 laws. Coaches spend less time on developing these skills and thus discourage deeper learning about them and eventually we are poorer for it at National level. Knowing how to counter an 8 man shove or how/when to put one on or how demoralising that can be for a team is totally diluted when it can only move 1.5m. Similarly, schoolboy props a generation ago were much better (and safer) technical operators because of this training and emphasis. Guttenbeil of TSS/Q1 may well be a fine general player in his new shape but he has been playing prop just this rep season and his competition hasn't even started yet. Squat TH's love coming up against tall LHs and it's even worse when they are inexperienced. Do you think there might be a Fijian, Kiwi or Home nations TH relishing this match up?
On Lee Grants' point re age - if you are good enough you are old enough. Both BSHS boys mentioned were mature beyond their years physically and mentally and were worthy of their positions in those sides and both have vindicated selections at higher levels since that time. The 2 year window age farce in Queensland is also annoying our rugby into submission. No coach will pick a bloke he thinks isn't up to it. I'll say it again, if they are good enough, they are old enough.
On Lee Grant's point re better coaching/facilities/S&C at GPS schools, with maybe an exception or two re coaching, this is self evident. The impacts of good players in lesser competitions are often blunted by those inside them. A good selection eye can see those things which allow the boy to be chosen in rep sides and thrive. I'm pleased for the Qld AIC boys who were selected in Aus teams - well done.
On the back and forth re selections - my concern is the Gen Y sense of entitlement underlying these petulant responses. Get over yourselves!! Is this the sort of primadonna lack of resilience we want to reward?? Next thing you know, these sorts of guys will be at Burger King at 4am in a pre test week. Team coaches influence selections and often have watched games more intently than the selectors have anyway. Selectors meet with coaches and seek specific feedback prior to selections and the team is largely picked before the last day anyway - its not like the selectors convene and thrash out a team while players slurp soup at the carnival lunch. There may be the odd wrangle here and there but 90% is already penned in before the last day games start - believe me. Brian O' Driscoll has 134 Tests to his name and missed selection for Lions Test 3 and the coach got it right. He was class personified to accept it an move on for the greater good of the team. Where was he ranting to the media about how he'd been hard done by? Who are these up themselves kids to expect selection?? In all states there are thousands of Open players who would have killed to be at the Nationals so the guys who were there should be thankful and humble about getting the chance.

Good luck to all boys in the Tests ahead - we're Australia now and that's all that matters.

 

[Lee Grant]

Incidentally, about the Oz Schools sides selected:

– they are not chosen like the two NSW teams, for example, were selected – i.e. the best XV in the Ones, the second best XV in the Twos, the best 8 reserves in the Twos, then the second best 8 reserves in the Ones.

The reasons for doing that no longer apply.

– the Oz teams are selected with the best 23 players in the Ones and the next best 23 in the Twos.

I understand that the starting XVs will not be chosen until the programmes have to be printed just before the Fiji test on 27th September.
.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Sorry Inside but I watched all the games and I like to support the Smaller Schools with their lads playing. This Winger was playing out of position to begin with as he is a natural right but was playing on the left as the coach wanted it that way. He played well with the limited opportunities that came out his way, but still managed to score in nearly every game. Including Monday's game where in the first 5 minutes he scored a beautiful solo length field try and 4 defenders missed him, he then unselfishly made a beautiful break and instead of running over the defender to score himself, he passed it to Kellaway to get the try. This same lad smashed Kellaway going over to score 3 tries against Scots College last year in a Trial game with his School Team.

Union don't want this lad and others and that's fine but its Union's loss and NRL Gain. This lad will be training with 1st grade NRL next year and will be having a wonderful time. His Manager, I have been told has already been fighting off other NRL Clubs that want this Athletic, fast, strong winger as this lad can also play numerous positions in the backline.
He has his photo up already for his NRL Club and is in the starting team for his Holden Cup.

His Disappointment might have vanished slightly now as the Beautiful hot Barney, sunny weather in Cairns, combined with first class Accommodation I hear and a Beautiful Swimming Pool and playing NRL for Australian Selection up there and fitting in with his team doing some sight seeing, sounds too good.

The Australia Teams have been now been picked. No use going over old ground. Wishing both Teams Success and all the Lads as well.

You missed my point.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Dark Shark]

First, congrats to those selected. For some it may be a goal they have pursued with intensity we will never know and every young man deserves their selection.

In recent years, it has always been a challenge of mine to keep those boys who have not been selected for a team to keep going and not give up. From experience, I do find that many who miss out at one time and keep pursuing their goal with dogged determination and never give up either find they achieve what they want in the end, or it provides a skill that allows them to go on and achieve greater things elsewhere. Those that give up or take selection for granted will not achieve anything of note in the future.

I tell the following personal true story to those that are disappointed:-

As a schoolboy. I was lucky enough to get selected in some young rep teams, but there was a kid who I knew from another school who always just missed the cut in those young sides. And I remember seeing him very upset at non selection on at least the first time. Later on through school, I didn't make the teams, but assumed this guy did because I thought he was that good, he had all the skills and I thought he dominated the game every time I played against him. Many years later, I ended up working with this young man where we both had casual jobs. At the time we were about 20. He had just got selected for an Austalian Development Tour to Europe. I remember he was so excited. And I said to him "Why are you so excited? Haven't you done these trips and tours before for Schoolboys and u19's?" He said no way, this was the first representative rugby team that he had ever been selected for and he was over the moon. For at least eight years he had been overlooked many many times for any representative team at every age group level going in QLD. But he had persisted and then went on to reap the rewards. His name is John Eales.

I guess the question these days, that I do not know the answer to, would a player like John Eales who gets overlooked all the way through junior development up to u20's, find a pathway into representative (incl Super) rugby now?

 

[Dark Shark]

Cattle dog, it is hard to comment on scrummaging north of the border because the Q GPS comp hasn't started yet. The AIC games I saw were underwhelming for me in this facet of the match. IMHO the issues the Wallabies face at scrum time are direct result of the fact U19 scrums are being depowered into farce by U19 laws. Coaches spend less time on developing these skills and thus discourage deeper learning about them and eventually we are poorer for it at National level. Knowing how to counter an 8 man shove or how/when to put one on or how demoralising that can be for a team is totally diluted when it can only move 1.5m. Similarly, schoolboy props a generation ago were much better (and safer) technical operators because of this training and emphasis. Guttenbeil of TSS/Q1 may well be a fine general player in his new shape but he has been playing prop just this rep season and his competition hasn't even started yet. Squat TH's love coming up against tall LHs and it's even worse when they are inexperienced. Do you think there might be a Fijian, Kiwi or Home nations TH relishing this match up?

I have to agree so much with this. While I acknowledge it is a different game today than 25 years ago when the u19 scrum rules were the same as the Seniors, I am astounded by how little the schoolboys actually practice scrummaging.

From the information I hear about school training, is that they would scrummage over a year at least 80% less than what was considered normal practice before the scrums were depowered for the u19's.

In Qld many years ago, I remember one school switching a boy who played winger in the u16's to a loose head prop in the First XV. That would not happen if the scrummaging was as serious as what we see in the Senior ranks. He wasn't too bad and could do it because he had tremendous core strength. I remember one game where he had it all over an oppposition prop who went on to play for the Wallabies.

Even in Brisbane Junior Club Rugby, it is not unheard of for a team to go through the junior seasons up to u17 without packing in training one single scrum against the machine.

Now that may not be just limited to QLD, but seeing and hearing the way some schools train their players, that may have been the issue.

 

[Cattledog]

Thanks DS as a 30 year veteran of the Front rowers union I find much of this quite a worry for both development & safety reasons.

In the game between QLD 1 & NSW 2 the visitors lost at least 2-3 tight heads and gave away at least 3 scrum penalties. It even got to the stage where the QLD team took opted for a drop kick restart in preference to a scrum upfield when NSW had kicked the ball dead!

In the QLD 1 v QLD 2 game yesterday the basic prop errors of sitting back on your heals on engagement, failing to chase your feet after the hit to keep your balance, and over extending on engagement were all clearly evident. BTW QLD 2 took 2 tight heads off QLD 1 in the first half.

However, if what has been written above is correct about the selection of "2013 prop converts" & lack of preparation then it is certainly not surprising. Clearly the ASRU U18 championships is no place to learn to scrummage.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

What does the future hold? Who'll be back?

Confirmation needed for Interstaters.

AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLS TEAM TO PLAY FIJI & NEW ZEALAND
(Colts 2014)
Joshua ANDERSON Oakhill College NSW 1
Lachlan CANNELL Newington College NSW 1
Andrew DEEGAN St Joseph’s College NSW 1
Junior FAKAOSILEA St Patrick’s College QLD 1
Ned HANIGAN St Joseph’s College NSW 2
Harry JONES Barker College NSW 1
Andrew KELLAWAY The Scots College NSW 1
Jack McCALMAN The Kings School NSW 1
Taane MILNE Newington College NSW 1
Tepai MOEROA Newington College NSW 1
Matthew SANDELL St Joseph’s College NSW 1
Faaope SATUI Trinity Grammar NSW 1
Mitchell SHORT The Scots College NSW 1
Mitch THIRD The Southport School QLD 1
Rahboni WARREN-VOSAYACO Endeavour Sports High NSW 1
Brad WILKIN Iona College QLD 1

(2014 Status To be confirmed)
Adrian HENLEY St Peter’s Lutheran College QLD 1
Alex MAFI St Joseph’s Nudgee College QLD 1
Connal McINERNEY Erindale College ACT
Fereti SA'AGA Thornbury High VIC
Moses SOROVI St Peter’s Lutheran College QLD 2

(Back in 2014)
Vunipola FIFITA Newington College NSW 2
Henry HUTCHISON St Ignatius College NSW 2

AUSTRALIA A SCHOOLS TEAM TO PLAY FIJI & NEW ZEALAND (Colts 2014 or Unknown)
(Colts 2014)
Sam CLIFTON The Southport School QLD 1
Tyson DAVIS Barker College NSW 2
Adrian DELORE Whitebridge SHS, NSW CS
Evander GUTTENBEIL The Southport School QLD 1
Ollie KAMP The Scots College, NSW CS
Nick KOUTSOUKIS Waverley College NSW 2
Joey LUSSICK Newington College NSW 2
Doug MACMILLAN Anglican Church Grammar QLD 2
David MORRIS Newington College NSW 2
Mesui TUFUI Newington College NSW 2

(2014 Status To be confirmed)
Carlin ANDERSON Ipswich Grammar School QLD 2
Joel BROWN The Southport School QLD 2
Matt GIBBON St Joseph’s Nudgee College QLD 2
Landon HAYES Ipswich Grammar School QLD 1
Maclean JONES St Joseph’s Nudgee College QLD 1
Liam JURD Toowoomba Grammar School QLD 2
Keith MORGAN St Edmunds College ACT
Blake PHILLIPS Clarkson SHS WA
James TODD Ipswich Grammar School QLD 1
Jason TOMANE St Edmunds College ACT
James TUTTLE St Joseph’s Nudgee College QLD 1

(Back in 2014)
Angus CRICHTON The Scots College NSW 1
Hosea FOTUKAVA St Ignatius College NSW 1

Edit: Adjustments to List made