Bledisloe #2 - AUS v NZL, Eden Park, Auckland, August 15th

[Rugbynutter39]

Actually TWAS I am not saying at all To'omua or Giteau at 10 are better than Foley or Cooper just that we have not got someone to date who has nailed 10 so we need to look at other options.

Hence, given both To'omua and Giteau have had at least been our better performers (granted To'omua last night did not have a good game) it would be worth seeing how they perform at 10 given both have played in 10 position. To'omua already in previous games showed some promise coming on at 10 so yes would like to see how he starts at 10 with Gits.

I am not saying they are the answer but as we don't have the answer to 10 we need to look at other options prior to getting to serious side of RWC.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

People are calling Coles try the game-changer & it was but for me Whitelock's turnover was the moment I went from thinking "we can win this" to "we're GONNA win this", irrespective of whether we'd scored from it. In Sydney we wouldn't have won that turnover, simple as that.

Carter was streets ahead of Sydney, maybe he has more confidence with Nonu at 12 than SBW? Kinda a reverse-Cruden situation.

Scrum was heaps better, I'll leave it to the experts to go through the bones & let the rest of us know how & why that came to be (like Pfitzy I was stunned when Barnes of all people called Sio for collapsing)

Anyways I think that, injury aside, we now know the 15 AB who'll start & the 8 who'll finish the major RWC matches.......

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Hopefully by now TWAS you have also come around to realise Giteau deserves to be in the 23

As you know I have not been convinced on Cooper I also didn't think he had a shocker last night and still may be an option at 10.

But given not had one performance yet which shown he is the chosen one (ditto with Foley) do we keep trying him or look at other realistic options for players who have at least been good performer in recent tests and experience playing 10.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Nah. Nonu is just better than SBW. Always has been.

 

[Gnostic]

Bit harsh on Speight. He defended well at least (took Savea out of much of the game). Absolutely no opportunities on attack. Can't see either Horne, Mitchell or Tomane doing any better. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was worse then Speight.

I am not a great AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) fan, but AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can kick and is reasonably reliable under the high ball. Speight can't kick for shit and Folau though he has kicked a few times recently has an action that makes him unreliable as an exit kicker where he could easily be charged.

The argument is that the back three can carry only one non reliable kicker. Think the Reds with Digby, 91 Wallabies with Edgerton, 99 Wallabies with Tune. All successful Australian sides have had two kickers in the back three excepting the 2014 Tahs and that got shown up big time this year in two losses to the Force and the semi loss.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) also involved himself in this game more than Speight and got more run metres and made no glaring defensive misses. I don't get how you say he was worse?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is one of the first names on the team sheet for mine.

 

[Gnostic]

Who of us really thinks we are in a position to pick a better side than the coach?

Seriously, have a think about the implications of your question, why bother paying a coach, just poll the G&G couch-coaches if you want to select a team that will beat the best team in the world, at their home fortress where they havent lost since richie was running round in shorts.

Maybe, maybe, just maybe the wobblies current form is a reflection of wobblies current talent versus that of the other teams playing rugby?

You and others have been saying this since Deans took over. Genuine critique forces improvement and is really the only way to achieve improvement. That critique is often most helpful coming from outside an insular environment.

Your way is a fatalistic throwing up of the hands saying they did the best they could for average players.

I just don't accept your premise that the players have less potential than the AB players and as an example I would point out the scrum, same players who were getting dished up in tests a few years ago, can now dominate, because of coaching.

 

[Pfitzy]

Scrum was heaps better, I'll leave it to the experts to go through the bones & let the rest of us know how & why that came to be (like Pfitzy I was stunned when Barnes of all people called Sio for collapsing)

Harder without spidercam but mainly it was a good contest - both sides a bit creaky on their own ball, but no real points decision to be made.

Biggest difference for me this week was positional changes: Horwill was TH lock last week and we got good drive. Skelton was there this week and we lost a bit of momentum I think.

However, that needs considered in the light of no Romano, who I don't rate at the core work of a TH lock. Instead Retallick was back to his familiar #5 position and Whitelock to LH lock. They work together well as a unit and have done for the last few years.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Thinking back now, and reading Cheika's post-match comments - its not as bad as it looked.

First half we were fairly competitive - both teams started like virgin brides it must be said. We were getting a roll on and then that counterattack try took the wind out of our sails a bit. Up until then it was fairly even with mistakes both ways.

Problem with White is he wasn't able to change the pace of the game once our forwards started to flag.

I'm of the opinion Hooper shouldn't have gone back out after that head knock, and that our one-out ball running just wasn't delivering the goods against a tight defence.

We score in that opening 20 - different game.

So not all bad.

I agree that Hooper shouldn't have come back on. It certainly looked like he had been knocked out, but I am guessing that qualified people had a look at him and cleared his return. I just don't think he had a clear head at all for the rest of the game.

True, that the first part of the game was evenly contested. But how often do the ABs score against the run of play, and often from a long way out. They have that capability in all of their backline players and in many of their forwards. Unfortunately, we don't - maybe only Izzy.

From that point on, we were struggling to keep up and as the game progressed the further our forwards fell off the pace. In that situation, I'd be interested to know how a halfback can be said to have not been able to change the pace of the game. Not just Nic White, but if Phipps for example had been out there, how could he up the pace of a fatigues forward pack that by the later stages couldn't get anywhere near an even share of the pill?

Nevertheless, I think the failure to have a second half back on the bench was a big mistake. No good saying Giteau was there because in a two backs bench he was covering other positions.

I would like to see the 6-2 bench put to bed for good. Just limits the options for finishing the game off by not having sufficient numbers of backs to cover foreseeable contingencies. And having four locks in the side didn't achieve anything imo. After last night's efforts, I think big Will is simply not effective enough to support his starting spot. And I don't think Douglas did anything to warrant his selection either. While both Horwill and Mumm missed crucial tackles, they look to be our best options until Rob Simmons comes back in. When that happens, Skelton on the bench and Mumm to cover 6 if necessary.

And I just have to acknowledge that KB (Kurtley Beale) pulled off a couple of huge defensive hits, that I was convinced he didn't have in him. His defensive reading was spot on.

 

[gold heart]

Congratulations to New Zealand.... very well played.

Unfortunately I did not get to see the singing of the anthems... normally a pretty good indicator on how we will play. Saw the kick off and thought that for the first twenty we went much better than just ok. I thoroughly enjoyed the rugby and I thought our ball control was quite good. Happy when Cooper slotted his first conversion especially with the booing from the bogans.

When Coles bolted it was like from then on we forgot to close the gate in the round yard and the black cattle just kept rushing thru. Deers in the headlights with reactionary plays rather than proactive moves.

Proud of the boys of what they have achieved this year to date ... last night was just too much for them.

Plenty more to come this year, I think Cheika will continue to pick sides that will play to a particular opposition.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Who of us really thinks we are in a position to pick a better side than the coach?

Seriously, have a think about the implications of your question, why bother paying a coach, just poll the G&G couch-coaches if you want to select a team that will beat the best team in the world, at their home fortress where they havent lost since richie was running round in shorts.

Maybe, maybe, just maybe the wobblies current form is a reflection of wobblies current talent versus that of the other teams playing rugby?

If you truly believe that, then there is surely no reason to have a coach at all.

Apart from identifying and developing talent and establishing game plans, the coach is responsible for putting the team together for every match they play, and last night his team was not up to it, quite possibly in some part due to selections that didn't work. Quite a legitimate activity for fans to comment on and pick fault with the selections that didn't work.

 

[KOB1987]

I saw a game with a poor line-out

The lineout was the least of our worries

Yes and yes, but it wasn't the presence of Skelton that was the problem, it was the non-presence of Simmons. Same deal last week. Once he is back our lineout will be fixed even if Pocock/Hooper/Skelton are all on the field. Apparently Kane Douglas' rushed return is as back-up to Simmons.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I am not a great AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) fan, but AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can kick and is reasonably reliable under the high ball. Speight can't kick for shit and Folau though he has kicked a few times recently has an action that makes him unreliable as an exit kicker where he could easily be charged.

The argument is that the back three can carry only one non reliable kicker. Think the Reds with Digby, 91 Wallabies with Edgerton, 99 Wallabies with Tune. All successful Australian sides have had two kickers in the back three excepting the 2014 Tahs and that got shown up big time this year in two losses to the Force and the semi loss.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) also involved himself in this game more than Speight and got more run metres and made no glaring defensive misses. I don't get how you say he was worse?

Worse or not, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) put in one shocker of a kick trying to clear from near his own 22m, and he missed a tackle on Coles in his try. Don't remember him having any other kicks. Don't think his hands were very good also. He didn't have a good game last night at all, but then who did?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Kob that's a load of BS about Douglas. He is a lock that's ok but not exceptional in the line out and doesn't get through the defensive work that Simmons does. Mumm and Horwill are both closer Simmons replacements.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Worse or not, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) put in one shocker of a kick trying to clear from near his own 22m, and he missed a tackle on Coles in his try. Don't remember him having any other kicks. Don't think his hands were very good also. He didn't have a good game last night at all, but then who did?

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was shocking last night I thought. Multiple crucial slips/missed tackles, passed over the sideline.

But it was a rare off night for him. Probably the last time he played similar was Auckland last year despite playing every test in between.

 

[fatprop]

Kob that's a load of BS about Douglas. He is a lock that's ok but not exceptional in the line out and doesn't get through the defensive work that Simmons does. Mumm and Horwill are both closer Simmons replacements.

Douglas's role is to cleanout in attack and defense, make his tackles, take his ball at the lineout and push hard in the scrums for 80 minutes, essentially the tight work not appreciated by many.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Douglas's role is to cleanout in attack and defense, make his tackles, take his ball at the lineout and push hard in the scrums for 80 minutes, essentially the tight work not appreciated by many.

It's my distinct impression that the scrum which had been at least competitive, maybe even dominant, while Horwill was on, just went to pieces after Horwill was replaced. I don't think Douglas had the necessary impact in this regard. But I'd be happy for someone to give an account of how the scrum went with different pairings of locks during the game.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Harder without spidercam but mainly it was a good contest - both sides a bit creaky on their own ball, but no real points decision to be made.

Biggest difference for me this week was positional changes: Horwill was TH lock last week and we got good drive. Skelton was there this week and we lost a bit of momentum I think.

However, that needs considered in the light of no Romano, who I don't rate at the core work of a TH lock. Instead Retallick was back to his familiar #5 position and Whitelock to LH lock. They work together well as a unit and have done for the last few years.

The thing I did notice was that I was seeing a lot less of Read's & McCaw's heads than in Sydney: still too much meerkating in the case of McCaw, tho.............

Nah. Nonu is just better than SBW. Always has been.

Nonu > SBW this year but not always: pre-2008 Nonu had a really weird, unbalanced running style that left him vulnerable on the outside to anyone reasonably quick, and on the inside to anyone reasonably big. He was also a noted ball-hogger & when he took the ball into contact he often either turned it over or got pinged for not releasing. Many of us thought he was pretty much Eroni Clarke v2.0 & was therefore best utilised as an 11.

Being left out of the '07 RWC seems to have been the watershed: he no longer does any of the bad things above & has really developed both his passing & kicking games to the point where he's almost a true 2nd 5/8 in the ~1949-70 NZ style. I think that helps Carter in that the defence has to consider what Nonu might do thus giving Carter just a little more time & space.

With SBW at 12 you know exactly what he's gonna do therefore pretty much what Carter will HAVE to do. Not sure why the Cruden-SBW combo works so well & Carter-SBW never really has.

 

[Gnostic]

Worse or not, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) put in one shocker of a kick trying to clear from near his own 22m, and he missed a tackle on Coles in his try. Don't remember him having any other kicks. Don't think his hands were very good also. He didn't have a good game last night at all, but then who did?

As I said I am not a great AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) fan. He is Mr Consistent (usually), has average passing skills for somebody who has been a professional rugby player his entire adult life..........

That said there is not another test level player eligible (in form) for the wallabies who can kick, defend and run effectively enough to unseat him. Horne, Tomane and Speight have all shown they can run and finish, Horne is the best defender out of all the back three contenders, but none of them can kick to save themselves. The Tahs got destroyed by the FORCE this year, TWICE, because they had no exit option but to run. The Wallabies were beaten in the NH last year for much the same reasons and the Wallaby pack was getting turned around easily last night again because of that limitation. Regardless of running skills IMO the Wallabies can only carry one back three player who is an unreliable kicker and that is Folau. So the wing spots must be occupied by a players who can kick reasonably reliably and in this squad that means Mitchell, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Beale.

From outside the squad, if he was fit and in form and could behave and be a team player JOC (James O'Connor) would be a huge consideration. For mine Speight, Tomane and Horne just don't have the skill set regardless of how much better runners they are with the ball in hand.

 

[cyclopath]

Kob that's a load of BS about Douglas. He is a lock that's ok but not exceptional in the line out and doesn't get through the defensive work that Simmons does. Mumm and Horwill are both closer Simmons replacements.

Yeah, but the word out of the Wallaby camp was that Douglas was brought in for Simmons' absence (i.e. maybe the coaching staff see him as more like for like than others??). I think that was KOB's point.