Cooper - Good or Great rugby player - discuss.

[EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7]

I enjoyed watching QC (Quade Cooper) play a little wider on the weekend.

But for chirst sake lad, go to fucking deck when you are tackled!

 

[The Chosen]

I enjoyed watching QC (Quade Cooper) play a little wider on the weekend.

But for chirst sake lad, go to fucking deck when you are tackled!

I'm not a fan either- what with the attitude,wild flick passes are an overkill and the shirking in defence.
Obviously his fellow players agree with me by the voting in the John Eales Medal-Cooper did not appear in the top dozen places!

 

[the plastic paddy]

His not defending must be terrible for morale and team cohesion. For all the talent, do not understand how the forwards put up with such show pony displays.

 

[light]

His not defending must be terrible for morale and team cohesion. For all the talent, do not understand how the forwards put up with such show pony displays.

Because on his day, he can make an average forward pack look like the best team in the world. You have to recognise and respect his skill and unpredictability, whether you like the guy or not.

 

[royboi]

he made 2 try saving tackles on the weekend

 

[Reddy!]

he made 2 try saving tackles on the weekend

I saw this too.

 

[rotary hoe]

Also made a fantastic try saver on the Beast this year in S.A. He is what he is and I don't understand the ill feeling towards him. A young kid with incredible talent that makes you want to turn on the telly and watch.
Under McKenzie he matured incredibly this year and played horses for courses-remember the boredom of the Queensland -Brumbies game this year where he kicked for field position all night and ground the Brumbies down.
But under supercoach Bob Deans game plan is 'here's the ball Quade ,do something special and just to make sure you do I'll stick 2 muppets next to you'.

 

[Athilnaur]

Made a good tackle in the super rugby final also. It's not that he can't tackle, it's that he's always scanning for the next play.

Even with that style, Quade is in and around plenty of players at the 60% completion rate. Hosea Gear, Andrew Ellis, Danny Cipriani, Luke McAlister were also in that bracket this year.

 

[Jay]

Made a good tackle in the super rugby final also. It's not that he can't tackle, it's that he's always scanning for the next play.

Even with that style, Quade is in and around plenty of players at the 60% completion rate. Hosea Gear, Andrew Ellis, Danny Cipriani, Luke McAlister were also in that bracket this year.

It's also that he often goes high or attempts that league style 'one one one strip' that rarely pays off. I think a big part of it is that he's often trying the big play in defence as well as attack, when the percentage play (obviously) is the better option.

But I think his tackling style in general means he's gonna struggle to defend the 10 channel. It's not that he's gonna miss tackles - everyone does that - but that he's gonna concede metres in making those tackles on big forwards/centres etc that's gonna put his teams on the back foot. But to be honest, the switching him to fullback thing seems to be working on defence and it allows him to return kicks which he's great at. I don't think it's a big problem.

 

[Athilnaur]

In those standing tackles he's usually playing pattycake while another tackler takes over and he starts scanning.

We all understand why Mckenzie set up this structure, but I don't like it at test level, never mind Quade, it's restricting Kurtley imo, fortunately Digby makes it work quite well.

Hope I don't see it next year though.

 

[Motorboater]

IMO Quade's performances at international level are more a reflection of the coaching.

Cooper has proven with the Reds he can adapt according to game constraints. He played some very astute, composed and mature Rugby this year - the Brumbies game was mentioned as an example.

We have to remember that such a style of Rugby, whilst seemingly fundamental, does not come naturally to Cooper. To revert to a foreign style of rugby on the international stage would no doubt take courage from any player. Under McKenzie he seemed to have the confidence to move away from what he knows and revert to these foreign (to him) tactics.

The question is: Cooper has had no problems playing this style under McKenzie, why has he struggled under Deans?

Of course Deans can coach, however the problem might be something a little more out of the box. Perhaps McKenzie has figured Cooper out, or maybe he was more confident in himself within the Red's set up.

Either way, it's a problem that needs to be sorted if we are to be competitive in this WC.

 

[Victorian Reds Fan]

IMO Quade's performances at international level are more a reflection of the coaching.

Cooper has proven with the Reds he can adapt according to game constraints. He played some very astute, composed and mature Rugby this year - the Brumbies game was mentioned as an example.

We have to remember that such a style of Rugby, whilst seemingly fundamental, does not come naturally to Cooper. To revert to a foreign style of rugby on the international stage would no doubt take courage from any player. Under McKenzie he seemed to have the confidence to move away from what he knows and revert to these foreign (to him) tactics.

The question is: Cooper has had no problems playing this style under McKenzie, why has he struggled under Deans?

Of course Deans can coach, however the problem might be something a little more out of the box. Perhaps McKenzie has figured Cooper out, or maybe he was more confident in himself within the Red's set up.

Either way, it's a problem that needs to be sorted if we are to be competitive in this WC.

Absolutely top post.

 

[fatprop]

In those standing tackles he's usually playing pattycake while another tackler takes over and he starts scanning.

We all understand why Mckenzie set up this structure, but I don't like it at test level, never mind Quade, it's restricting Kurtley imo, fortunately Digby makes it work quite well.

Hope I don't see it next year though.

Yep in a perfect world, Quade would happily bend his back and tackle in the line, but the world ain't perfect and he won't so we make allowances/compromises because he is the best option we have

 

[I like to watch]

IMO Quade's performances at international level are more a reflection of the coaching.


The question is: Cooper has had no problems playing this style under McKenzie, why has he struggled under Deans?

Maybe because test level is a higher standard than Super 15.
having less time against stronger teams means more pressure.
More pressure means less composure.
QC (Quade Cooper)'s better form in super 15 is all about the quality of the opposition, not about the coaches.
the way it has panned out he should be our 10 for the rest of the tournament, with a running 12 outside him.
However if it is believed that BB needs to babysit him from 12, then I suggest RD bites the bullet & makes QC (Quade Cooper) an impact bench player.
If the winger has to do his tackling, and the 12 has to run the team, then he shouldn't be in the starting side as 10.
For those that insist that he adds value from the back, then put him there and bench KB (Kurtley Beale).
I am getting the vibe that KB (Kurtley Beale) is getting a bit selfish when he gets the pill,as he is trying too hard as he gets the ball less than any other 15 in the tournament with kick return ball going to QC (Quade Cooper).

 

[Motorboater]

It's not his ability that is in question here. IMO that is proven at test level. No doubting he has lacked composure this WC, however the fact he has shown it against far stronger opponents in the Boks and Blacks suggests he is capable of performing well on the international stage.

I'm more concerned about his ability to adapt to the constraints of each match. IMO it speaks more about his immaturity or insecurities as a player.

 

[Braveheart81]

I wonder how much of the problem has been that our gameplan breaks down in the wet because the long cut out ball skipping McCabe and Fainga'a becomes impossible and it results in him making poorer choices.

 

[Bon]

I rate him as very good, not great, yet. He is still young and has time to develop and round out his game.It would be a shame to see him return to league before realizing his potential.

 

[Mica]

Good until he does something great.

We could be waiting a while, then again it could happen tomorrow. You just never know and therefore he is more than valuable.

Or conversely does something poor.
The two things that he needs to get right to become great is become a competent defender and make the right decision more often.

Unfortunately the x factor that everyone talks about is a double edged sword.
Low percentage plays are either dumb or genius depending on whether they come off or not.

Personally I don't want my flyhalf throwing flick passes in the in goal, nor do I want grubber kicks inside our 22 in the wet in a tight game.
In these circumstances the flyhalf needs to take responsibility for the team as well and when they don't come off the rest of the team is placed under unnecessary pressure.

People say that Cooper is similar in temprament to Campese; however Campese was more likely to be able to get away with it as he was at the end of the backline, not at the beginning.

Also a winger doesn't have the same responsibility for controlling the game that a flyhalf has........so should we move Cooper to the wing?

Of course not....... his defence is not good enough

I like Barnes and look at how the USA game stabilised when he came on

 

[light]

You are right Mica, I like to look at Barnes as more of a conductor.

What Berrick does is stabilise the back-line, he doesn't use flashy one off individual solo efforts and he plays to his strengths. He complements his great short passing game with very accurate tactical kicking. He doesn't have the flair or the step of a Cooper and he knows his limitations, he keeps a level head under pressure and goes with percentage plays. Also has the leadership and nous to be able to tell players where to stand and direct them around the park into positions where they can be of assistance. When watching him you just feel as if he is a team player.

Cooper seems quite the opposite, the solo running and long passing he displays can provide x-factor in the back line. He's unpredictable and can open defensive combinations very easily, the guy would much rather run and pass the ball out of his 22 than go for the traditional boot upfield for field position. He has the speed and confidence to take players on 1v1 and usually succeeds. What I don't like about Cooper is that he doesn't know when to play safe, he expects the other players around him to know what he is doing and thus gets angry when things don't go right. As a player, it must get frustrating to play with, being expected to read the mind of a playmaker is never easy, an unpredictable playmaker makes it even more difficult. Add to this his defence and you get a player who is either really hot or really cold, either end of the spectrum can result in a 50-0 win or 50-0 loss.

It's all speculation now but I think with a full uninjured season at 10 for the Tahs and Barnes would have been our first choice fly-half regardless of the Reds success. He offers consistency, accurate kicking, brilliant short passing game and a great temperament, that and he can contribute in defence without requiring the team playing around him. Cooper is however our best choice 10 as it is, he's gaining experience every game and the more mistakes he makes the more he learns, unfortunately now is not the time for mistakes. The short-term fix for this situation is Barnes at 12 to neutralise Cooper and I think that will be the approach Deans takes, until the guy can play the game without making stupid decisions he will remain a player with potential who never quite made it to greatness.

 

[Nelse]

Cooper looked unreal on occasion in the Super tournament. Against the Blues in the semi-final especially. It was a high pressure game against a formidable opposition, yet he got the reds into the game with a few showings of individual brilliance, but importantly, managed to link up with his team mates. Think about his break down the right wing in that game, and when he made Kaino (I think) look like he's never defended before in his life by turning him inside out with his 'predictable' stepping.

If Cooper can achieve that sort of game in this world cup, it would be spectacular. However he doesn't look close to that sort of performance at the moment. In fact the closest he came was against tired opposition of the USA, when Barnes was giving him a lot more space.

Much the same why Giteau was always so much better outside of Larkham and Cooper looked a different player between the semi and final of the Super Rugby, he seems to revel in a bit of extra space. In the final, the crusader found his weakness by shutting Genia down. Genia was put under pressure and couldn't get the best ball away to Coopera and so his space was shut down. Behind a forward pack going backwards shuts down his room to move. But with someone, whether that be Digby being in first reciever on turnover, Barnes in the last game and the French game last year or just in counter attack with some space, he looks unreal.

So a great player? has potential. Good player, definitely (with a need to man up in defence enough to stay in that 10 channel in test matches), but a great 10? maybe not. A good 10 certainly

But if he doesn't have the ability to adapt to being under pressure and not being able to create the space he needs, then he might not be able to move from goodness to greatness.



All my opinion of course..