Death of a Subbies Club

[Mangoman]

Was curious if anyone had insight into how some of the bigger and more successful clubs in Subbies over the last 15-20 or so years managed to go from seemingly thriving (ie 3+ grades) to dead or on life support (ie 1 grade or defunct).

Managed to draw up a list of those clubs that came to mind first and foremost;

Balmain (ex Div 1 - now Div 6)

Brothers (ex Div 1 - now Div 6)

Kings (ex Div 2 - now Div 6)

Chatswood (ex Div 1/2 depending on how far you go back - now Div 4)

Dundas (ex Div 1 - defunct)

Oatley (ex Div 2 - now Div 6)

St George (ex Div 3 - defunct)

Liverpool (ex Div 2/3 depending on how far back - defunct)

I’m sure there is more if I went digging further but those are the 8 that jumped out either given their historical strength or that they were high up the divisions in that era.

 

[DaSchmooze]

I did a season at Dundas in 97. At the time, they were in Div 2 and still a highly functioning club. Our club presentation was held in our own licensed premises and we had a proper uniform to wear to it. Having played for Pats Old Boys, this level of formality seemed odd - more what I would have expected from a Shute Shield club. The club also subsidized some of our fees too. IN terms of financial management, they were the best club I'd been involved with.

I have no idea why things went south but I suspect it was due to a pretty poor reputation the club had with others. We were known as a club that liked to turn on the biff and (despite the current playing group having nothing to do with that), we would be baited relentlessly every game. That season was rough for us and we dropped to Div 3 the following year. It was my one and only season with them and certainly an eye opener for sure. There was a bit of a synergy between us and Parramatta but I suspect that cross town assistance started to dry up in the early 00s.

If I had to hazard a guess, Id think the demise of the club was due to repeated poor performances and the introduction of more clubs further west that catered for the large number of Pasifika players we had.

The Vikings struck me as a square peg in a round hole. A well run Rugby entity surrounded by league fanatics.

 

[Pfitzy]

I'm speaking partly from memory and partly from rumour here, so take none of it as gospel. Both are unreliable sources at my age

Balmain (ex Div 1 - now Div 6)

Money dries up, support dries up.

Brothers (ex Div 1 - now Div 6)

In 2011 the rumour was a fair bit of money around to bring in some ex-Premier players which was obviously of limited value, but really it is a challenging part of Sydney to operate within. You've got a number of Premier, 1st, and 2nd Division clubs within cooee, and the demographics aren't favourable, particularly if the school relationship isn't as solid as it once was.

Kings (ex Div 2 - now Div 6)

From dusty memory, they had a 4th Grade side that was holding out for a Premiership win. When they finally did it, they retired, and I believe the Committee thought they could still stick it up there. The fall was rapid.

Chatswood (ex Div 1/2 depending on how far you go back - now Div 4)

Demographics - similar to Brothers. And competition for players from larger clubs.

Dundas (ex Div 1 - defunct)

Punchy punchy. But also demographics - look at the change in population and density around there.

Oatley (ex Div 2 - now Div 6)

League.

St George (ex Div 3 - defunct)

Money come, money go.

Liverpool (ex Div 2/3 depending on how far back - defunct)

League.

Southwest Sydney is no-man's land for rugby. Guys are getting $600 to come off the bench for league clubs and more if they score tries.

Here's a map of all clubs in Premier and Subbies. See the big hole?

 

[Pfitzy]

I posted this somewhere else, but this is a list of clubs that have perished during the period Renegades Rugby has been alive

Oakhill Old Boys
Norwest
Rockdale
Killara West Pymble
Bankstown
Notre Dame Uni
St George
Liverpool
Fairvale/Lansvale
Roseville
Sydney Grammar Old Boys
Collaroy
Clovelly
Seaforth
ICMS
Terrey Hills
Lane Cove
Sydney Combined Forces

Some of them were born after we were. It isn't an easy slog, this "rugby" thing.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I'm speaking partly from memory and partly from rumour here, so take none of it as gospel. Both are unreliable sources at my age


Money dries up, support dries up.


In 2011 the rumour was a fair bit of money around to bring in some ex-Premier players which was obviously of limited value, but really it is a challenging part of Sydney to operate within. You've got a number of Premier, 1st, and 2nd Division clubs within cooee, and the demographics aren't favourable, particularly if the school relationship isn't as solid as it once was.




From dusty memory, they had a 4th Grade side that was holding out for a Premiership win. When they finally did it, they retired, and I believe the Committee thought they could still stick it up there. The fall was rapid.


Demographics - similar to Brothers. And competition for players from larger clubs.


Punchy punchy. But also demographics - look at the change in population and density around there.


League.


Money come, money go.


League.

Southwest Sydney is no-man's land for rugby. Guys are getting $600 to come off the bench for league clubs and more if they score tries.

Here's a map of all clubs in Premier and Subbies. See the big hole?

View attachment 14471

Wasn't there once a club called the Macarthur Crusaders? I seem to remember them popping up for a season or two. And Claymore played until they were kicked out following their booting out of the local League comp for violence. Shocking no one who knows anything about that area.

But it's kind of nuts that the only two clubs still standing in the greater south west of the city are both Camden and Campbelltown. Yet neither compete in the subbies system.

 

[The Burke]

A few other clubs that are no more
Hurlstone Park
Lidcombe
Blakehurst

 

[Pfitzy]

Wasn't there once a club called the Macarthur Crusaders? I seem to remember them popping up for a season or two.

Played Halligan Cup and smashed everyone.

 

[Mangoman]

Matraville (ex Div 1 - gooooone)

Rockdale (ex Div 5 - gooooone)

My old man played for Matraville in their good days back in the late 80's and into the late 90's. 5 grades strong and stories of bus trips and crazy times on the field and off the field. I've also heard the story many times about the club going down but I think a few factors at play, not the least of which being a spotty record with the judiciary and a lack of youth into the club. That coupled with the school actively moving away from rugby didn't help when Subbies were pushing hard at the Colts angle (still seems to be the case) and as such, a strong club folded in 2005/06 never to be seen again! The old field has now been leveled and replaced with a synthetic soccer field...what can you do. Sad really considering it's a club I probably would have gone on to play for given the connection drawn from afternoons selling beer out the back of a shitty-falling-apart-graffitied caravan as a 6 year old! How times have changed...

Played against Rockdale a few times, still astounds me how a club that owns and runs their own field can suffer as much as they did and still don't have a team to field. Doubt they will again despite having a junior club still operating. From memory there were a lot of older guys and some younger inexperienced guys as well and I'd assume that when the older boys hung up the boots they then folded as a club

Wasn't there once a club called the Macarthur Crusaders?

Played against Macarthur also, feel like the club had legs but had the wrong playing stock under them. Very flaky to say the least. The same core couple of blokes have travelled from St George (died off, not sure if a direct cause) to Fairvale (died off a season or so after they left) to Macarthur (died off as soon as they left, but not sure how that all went down) to Dukes (had 2 grades to fill and were happy to have any extra legs) to Menai (who didn't really need any help but who then dropped to Halligans) to Dukes (who filled 3 grades for all of 3 weeks before it fell apart...) to Menai again...anyway...
From memory it was only 2 seasons, 1 in Halligan and another in Meldrum. Halligan was a cake walk and Meldrum was a bit harder of a task. Should still be a club given where they were located and with the right group in charge the club could still be around...

I posted this somewhere else, but this is a list of clubs that have perished during the period Renegades Rugby has been alive

Oakhill Old Boys
Norwest
Rockdale
Killara West Pymble
Bankstown
Notre Dame Uni
St George
Liverpool
Fairvale/Lansvale
Roseville
Sydney Grammar Old Boys
Collaroy
Clovelly
Seaforth
ICMS
Terrey Hills
Lane Cove
Sydney Combined Forces

Some of them were born after we were. It isn't an easy slog, this "rugby" thing.

Can't speak to Oakhill, Norwest, KWP, Notre Dame, Roseville or Bankstown but the rest I took the field against at one stage or another.

Rockdale see above...

St George I played when they were on life support and general had a low feeling about how things went for the club. Had 13 guys turning up on occasion and struggling to see out the season. I remember there even being 2 of those guys who were AT LEAST 55-60 years old at the time being asked to run the team off the field and play 80 mins while playing with less than 15 each weekend. Great ground to play at right on Kogarah Bay.

Fairvale were struggling as a club in general, decent enough bunch of blokes off the field but don't know too much about how they fell apart. Same with Terrey Hills, Dee Why and Seaforth. Not sure how the clubs managed to fall apart...

Liverpool (at least the 2nd iteration in 2012, the Cougars) were a hard rugby team in general but as much as that was good on the field it didn't help off the field with the judiciary...4 "established offences". Killed it against all opposition but would have been brought unstuck with 3 match officials seeing everything come finals time. Lost to a clinical Grammar OB's outfit in the GF. Then disappeared...

Grammar OBs were a bunch of guys of school guys and other mates that stuck together for a few years and won a premiership and contended a few others before dying off.

Clovelly from what I could work out were some guys who started as fringe Wicks 4th/5th graders and a few other mates that came together to form the Blowflies. Same as Grammar, won a premiership and contended for a few more before dying off.

ICMS had a good relationship with the Marlins for a couple of years until they fell off the perch, a relationship seemingly bested and improved upon by the Savers.

Collaroy were a bunch of U18s that stuck around in Subbies with a few older heads. Not sure why the club fell apart, seemed to have a good thing going...

Covies are disappointing to see up there given they had 2 senior and 2 colt grades all of 5 or so years ago...not sure of the ins and outs and how they've ended up on struggle street. Assume it would be to do with demographics in the area making recruiting difficult.

Comb. Forces. Never took the field against them but know a lot of their back story. Had the choice to join up with the Dukes and have the Dukes become the "preferred" club for armed forces guys and girls when back in Sydney. Dukes had a lot of ex and current serving members at the time which made the move logical until they essentially asked to be their own separate club but under the Dukes banner (i.e. not allowing players to "play up" in 1st grade but using the jerseys and ground and gear etc). They made the move to A.R Hurst/Engadine and I think that without having a separation between work and play a lot of guys would have given the club up. That plus the fact that a lot of them already had allegiances to other clubs hurt their idea of the club. A good idea and honestly, a needed idea. Returned vets having a rugby club community base is a great initiative, it was just incorrectly executed.

 

[Pfitzy]

Where the "not sure why that happened" applied, you can probably throw in "lack of volunteers".

Everyone wants to play. Nobody wants to do the off-field stuff.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Reading through all of these clubs and their apparent struggles for numbers a part of me has to wonder why something likes a 10/12 a side division was never looked at? Seriously. Requires less numbers overall. Could arguably be better suited to a one may be two team clubs. You could modify it a little to run for 20 minute halves may be even adopt the Hockey 20 minute 3rds structure. Could have a few options in terms of when games are run. As in not necessarily on the weekend but in the evening during the week etc.

 

[Pfitzy]

Requires less numbers overall

Requires the same number of volunteers.

Executive Committee of 3 + a couple of General Committee. Maybe they're players.
Ground Marshal
Assistant Ref(s)
Canteen/BBQ
Coach(es)
Manager(s) which you can do without in a pinch.

A few people I've spoken to say "Ah but that's where your Old Boys come in and help!"

That's if you've got any. Particularly the younger clubs like ours, as soon as someone gets toward retirement they sell up around here, take the silly profit margin, and move up the coast.

Nowadays who is doing your social media can have a big impact as well.

 

[Rebel man]

Was curious if anyone had insight into how some of the bigger and more successful clubs in Subbies over the last 15-20 or so years managed to go from seemingly thriving (ie 3+ grades) to dead or on life support (ie 1 grade or defunct).

Managed to draw up a list of those clubs that came to mind first and foremost;

Balmain (ex Div 1 - now Div 6)

Brothers (ex Div 1 - now Div 6)

Kings (ex Div 2 - now Div 6)

Chatswood (ex Div 1/2 depending on how far you go back - now Div 4)

Dundas (ex Div 1 - defunct)

Oatley (ex Div 2 - now Div 6)

St George (ex Div 3 - defunct)

Liverpool (ex Div 2/3 depending on how far back - defunct)

I’m sure there is more if I went digging further but those are the 8 that jumped out either given their historical strength or that they were high up the divisions in that era.

Have there been other clubs rise up the ranks?

 

[Pfitzy]

Have there been other clubs rise up the ranks?

The top 2 Divisions are basically a revolving door.

Redfield Old Boys is the only club in the last 20 years to start up and rise above 4th Division, from memory. Western Raptors looked like they could do it, then things fell over.

History, Juniors, Facilities - those are the 3 key things to all the clubs up in the top divisions.

 

[Rebel man]

Also questions, can clubs afford to pay players in the Shute Shield and Subbies? Are they allowed to. Down where I live in Melbourne local footy, soccer, cricket and basketball all pay players. Makes it tough for rugby

 

[Mangoman]

Have there been other clubs rise up the ranks?

I guess Balmain falls into both categories...

Hills have gone up from 2 teams in the early 2000s to Div 2

Knox were in Div 4 for a long while until a surge up the ranks happened to land them in Div 1 with a Kentwell Cup to their name.

Redfield had a brush with the upper divisions on the back of a record 43 straight 1st grade wins in the early 2010’s.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Requires the same number of volunteers.

Executive Committee of 3 + a couple of General Committee. Maybe they're players.
Ground Marshal
Assistant Ref(s)
Canteen/BBQ
Coach(es)
Manager(s) which you can do without in a pinch.

A few people I've spoken to say "Ah but that's where your Old Boys come in and help!"

That's if you've got any. Particularly the younger clubs like ours, as soon as someone gets toward retirement they sell up around here, take the silly profit margin, and move up the coast.

Nowadays who is doing your social media can have a big impact as well.

It may require some flexibility on what exactly constitutes a club as well.

 

[Pfitzy]

Also questions, can clubs afford to pay players in the Shute Shield and Subbies? Are they allowed to. Down where I live in Melbourne local footy, soccer, cricket and basketball all pay players. Makes it tough for rugby

Premier Rugby (Shute Shield) pays some players - no restrictions there. They claim it isn't a lot, but it's better than a kick in the dick.

Subbies is fully amateur. They made that decision a few years back in order to prevent the constant flare, flicker, and die of clubs who came into a bit of cash.

Of course for certain clubs it doesn't matter because they're not "paying" in cash, but joining particular clubs might have opportunities that others don't, in terms of networking and access.

 

[Nath]

Played Halligan Cup and smashed everyone.

Played one season of Div 6 too.

We wiped them 70 zip in a semi final at Wills Ground(think it was 2016) and that was the last we ever heard of them.

Think they came from Fairvasle/Lansvale before they were the Crusaders, and packed up and moved to Merrylands after.

 

[En Gage]

You can throw South Sydney NZ, West Sydney Saints and Western Union into the where are they now category as well.

 

[Pfitzy]

Played against Rockdale a few times, still astounds me how a club that owns and runs their own field can suffer as much as they did and still don't have a team to field. Doubt they will again despite having a junior club still operating. From memory there were a lot of older guys and some younger inexperienced guys as well and I'd assume that when the older boys hung up the boots they then folded as a club

They're back! Two teams in Div 4, and with some players from other clubs in the area (including a few ex-Menai), and a connection with Southern Districts via one of their coaches, I reckon they'll go alright.

Covies are disappointing to see up there given they had 2 senior and 2 colt grades all of 5 or so years ago...not sure of the ins and outs and how they've ended up on struggle street. Assume it would be to do with demographics in the area making recruiting difficult.

Also back! At least in terms of a merger effort with Northern Saints. Hopefully this takes a bit of pressure off both clubs and they can focus on recruitment.

I note that Gordon have been using Saints' ground at SnIves for preseason and Colts games. Unfortunately, I don't think it will result in a lot of love for the Saints in terms of recruitment for future years. Premier Rugby is Premier Rugby, after all.