Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[Slim 293]

Shute Shield is on Seven because the ARU pays for it........

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Prehaps I was a tad over the top with the word war.

However assuming he does not have a point and that his friends like Alan Jones don't have influence is foolish.

You may not agree with him and think he is useless but the SS is ln 7,

Anyone who thinks he will go quietly into the night is wrong.

For starters he is on the Super radio network, Ss is on 7, Alan Jones is the top rating radio person in the country.

As to how what etc I have no idea but to assume he can be told to go away he very foolish.


'

The Shute Shield on featured on 7 last season because the ARU provided $300,000 to ensure the broadcast happened. While the clubs had to contribute $5,000 each it would have fallen a long way short without the ARU coming to the rescue. Funny that Papworth has often forgotten to mention that one of his supposed strongest arguing points wouldn't exist without the ARU.

From the article and its rather combative language it'scsafe to say that the ARU won't be so forthcoming this time round. They've even mentioned that they will have to find it themsleves. Which should be interesting. As of now considering they weren't able to overcome this same issue last year I'd say that position of supposed strength is looking fairly shakey.

Oh, there's another position of strength for Pulver. The Rugby competition he established pays for itself while the SS with its FTA exposure only achieves this by actively losing money on if.

As for Jones. Individually he may be the highest rating radio host. But more people listen to other stations and shows (by some margin) than actually listen to his. Even less so than those who would be kicked into actions in regards to the game itself.

 

[Quick Hands]

None of the Shute Shield clubs have a direct interest in the operation of the junior clubs that fall within their district. At least from my experience. There's a very loose association that extends to the provision of junior rep teams but that's largely it.

Not quite.

I only claim to speak for the Manly area, but it's a fair bit more than a "loose association", although this description may suit the narrative of those who oppose the clubs.

Each of the Manly affiliated clubs are allocated a home game at Manly Oval where they can play minis/juniors at half time and/or between games, form a tunnel for the teams, have the opportunity to showcase sponsors and a tent for use by the club/sponsors. In addition, Manly players are available to and do go to junior club training sessions and attend club presentations etc. The Marlins support touring team fundraising activities for the junior rep teams (who are often coached by ex-players and current players are again available assist at training). Manly JRU rep teams also have a day at Manly Oval on a home game.

Further, when there was a Manly Referees Association (before a hostile takeover by Sydney Juniors), the Manly club subsidised its operation to the extent that there were never any fees payable to join or for gear etc.

While the Manly RFC and the Manly JRU are separate incorporated associaions, I'd say that there was a fairly tight and close association between all levels of rugby in this area - based on almost 50 years as a junior player, referee, coach, committee person and general dogs body.

If you are going to make a sweeping generalisation, you need to make sure it's accurate. If your experience is different to the above, that's fine and I don't question it, but don't project your negative experience on to the rest of the rugby community.

 

[Quick Hands]

I was recently informed that the particular development program was actually developed by the Roos themselves. Which is rather impressive I must say. If so, they should really look at putting together some sort of material for other junior clubs so they can look to do likewise.

In general, what needs to be done is that you identify local primary schools in your catchment area, then ask your existing parents who have children at those primary schools to promote the event, then ask for volunteers to help run it, make sure someone competent is co-ordinating it and book NSWRU DOs to attend (this involves a fee).

It's just hard work and community engagement.

We run another one in the July school holidays for the older kids - existing and prospective new kids. Cost was $10 per kid, which included a sausage sandwich and drink.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Not quite.

I only claim to speak for the Manly area, but it's a fair bit more than a "loose association", although this description may suit the narrative of those who oppose the clubs.

Each of the Manly affiliated clubs are allocated a home game at Manly Oval where they can play minis/juniors at half time and/or between games, form a tunnel for the teams, have the opportunity to showcase sponsors and a tent for use by the club/sponsors. In addition, Manly players are available to and do go to junior club training sessions and attend club presentations etc. The Marlins support touring team fundraising activities for the junior rep teams (who are often coached by ex-players and current players are again available assist at training). Manly JRU rep teams also have a day at Manly Oval on a home game.

Further, when there was a Manly Referees Association (before a hostile takeover by Sydney Juniors), the Manly club subsidised its operation to the extent that there were never any fees payable to join or for gear etc.

While the Manly RFC and the Manly JRU are separate incorporated associaions, I'd say that there was a fairly tight and close association between all levels of rugby in this area - based on almost 50 years as a junior player, referee, coach, committee person and general dogs body.

If you are going to make a sweeping generalisation, you need to make sure it's accurate. If your experience is different to the above, that's fine and I don't question it, but don't project your negative experience on to the rest of the rugby community.

That's great. Really is but as mentioned many, many times previously Manly are in most cases the exception rather than the rule. If others with associations with the Shute Shield clubs have information contrary to my assertion, that's great. Feel free too set the record straight. I've no issue with being proven wrong. I've always found that you tend to learn and broaden your horizons that way.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

In general, what needs to be done is that you identify local primary schools in your catchment area, then ask your existing parents who have children at those primary schools to promote the event, then ask for volunteers to help run it, make sure someone competent is co-ordinating it and book NSWRU DOs to attend (this involves a fee).

It's just hard work and community engagement.

We run another one in the July school holidays for the older kids - existing and prospective new kids. Cost was $10 per kid, which included a sausage sandwich and drink.

I think the biggest obstacle for most junior club administrators is simply knowing where to start. Having something tangible in front of them to use as a guide would largely assist in overcoming the dissonance that exists.

The volunteer side of it is very interesting. Would be great if some kind of accreditation focused around junior club volunteers could be established that equipped them with knowledge (be it relatively basic) in how to administer such sessions independent of DO's (Not just the current coaching certification though ideally combined with it).

 

[p.Tah]

That's great. Really is but as mentioned many, many times previously Manly are in most cases the exception rather than the rule. If others with associations with the Shute Shield clubs have information contrary to my assertion, that's great. Feel free too set the record straight. I've no issue with being proven wrong. I've always found that you tend to learn and broaden your horizons that way.

Norths are quite involved with the local juniors on the lower North Shore. Usually help out with some coaching and attending awards days. Especially Norths pirates.
Gordon have some involvement but that's more to do with specific individuals at Gordon who have an interest in junior development than a formal strategy by the club. Appears to do more work with Chatswood juniors than the other junior clubs up the North Shore.
My general experience with the SS clubs is that they provide some assistance, but they are usual flat out trying to look after their own club with their limited resources.
The junior clubs are run by the parents, most of who move on when their kids move on. Involvement by SS is pretty ad hoc. They'll help if they can and if they're asked.
NSWRU (and SRU) need to step up coordinator and facilitate communication and activity between the SS and junior clubs to replica the success in the Manly region.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Norths are quite involved with the local juniors on the lower North Shore. Usually help out with some coaching and attending awards days. Especially Norths pirates.
Gordon have some involvement but that's more to do with specific individuals at Gordon who have an interest in junior development than a formal strategy by the club. Appears to do more work with Chatswood juniors than the other junior clubs up the North Shore.
My general experience with the SS clubs is that they provide some assistance, but they are usual flat out trying to look after their own club with their limited resources.
The junior clubs are run by the parents, most of who move on when their kids move on. Involvement by SS is pretty ad hoc. They'll help if they can and if they're asked.
NSWRU (and SRU) need to step up coordinator and facilitate communication and activity between the SS and junior clubs to replica the success in the Manly region.

That was my experience as a junior as well. Occasionally you might see someone from the district but for the vast majority of the time it was the parents who ran the show.

 

[Quick Hands]

I think the biggest obstacle for most junior club administrators is simply knowing where to start. Having something tangible in front of them to use as a guide would largely assist in overcoming the dissonance that exists.

The volunteer side of it is very interesting. Would be great if some kind of accreditation focused around junior club volunteers could be established that equipped them with knowledge (be it relatively basic) in how to administer such sessions independent of DO's (Not just the current coaching certification though ideally combined with it).

Depending on the area that you want to work in you need to identify primary schools (from previous post you are in the Macarthur/Campbelltown area). the key is the link between parents and primary school.

The Manly Roos have 6 primary schools in our catchment - Manly, Manly West and Manly Vale in the state system and St Kieran's, St Mary's and St Cecelia's in the catholic system. Manly West is a reasonably big primary school, Manly middle range and the rest are quite small. The parents promote it on behalf of the club.

It's critical that when the kids and parents turn up that it's all well-run - don't over extend. IMO doing it poorly is worse than doing nothing - if it's a schemozzle, people turn up and think you're a bunch of dopes and never come back.

Not only have we expanded numbers, but there's been a significant number of kids from non-traditional rugby demographics who have joined the club in the past couple of years.

As the article says the syllabus is already there ARU and Aust Sports Commission do that. All you have to do is convince the school - if there's enough parents and a local club willing to co-ordinate, then overworked and underesourced teachers will love it.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Depending on the area that you want to work in you need to identify primary schools (from previous post you are in the Macarthur/Campbelltown area). the key is the link between parents and primary school.

The Manly Roos have 6 primary schools in our catchment - Manly, Manly West and Manly Vale in the state system and St Kieran's, St Mary's and St Cecelia's in the catholic system. Manly West is a reasonably big primary school, Manly middle range and the rest are quite small. The parents promote it on behalf of the club.

It's critical that when the kids and parents turn up that it's all well-run - don't over extend. IMO doing it poorly is worse than doing nothing - if it's a schemozzle, people turn up and think you're a bunch of dopes and never come back.

Not only have we expanded numbers, but there's been a significant number of kids from non-traditional rugby demographics who have joined the club in the past couple of years.

As the article says the syllabus is already there ARU and Aust Sports Commission do that. All you have to do is convince the school - if there's enough parents and a local club willing to co-ordinate, then overworked and underesourced teachers will love it.

I would like to get a good look at the program overview if one is available. I think there's strong potential out this way. We have three clubs (I recently discovered the existence of the Macarthur Crusaders) in the area. Plenty of primary schools in the area. In regards to the Camden Rams alone you're talking about about 12. The Harlequins have even more and the Crusaders easily about the same as Camden (they are based in Ingleburn).

 

[stoff]

Ss is on 7, Alan Jones is the top rating radio person in the country.'

It's not in Melbourne - the VFL is. Tipping something similar goes for all the other state capitals, and probably a fair chunk of regional centres that aren't Sydney. As for Alan Jones, it is pretty much Alan Who for the 80% of Australians who don't live in Sydney. This is probably the biggest mistake the SS clubs make - thinking that anyone outside Sydney (and a very small part of Sydney at that) gives a rats if they live or die. I am going to go out on a limb and speak for the rest of the country and say we are sick of Sydney dragging the rest of the game down through its infighting. The A in ARU stands for Australia.

That wasn't directed at you Half, your post just highlighted something to me.


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[Quick Hands]

This is probably the biggest mistake the SS clubs make - thinking that anyone outside Sydney (and a very small part of Sydney at that) gives a rats if they live or die. I am going to go out on a limb and speak for the rest of the country and say we are sick of Sydney dragging the rest of the game down through its infighting. The A in ARU stands for Australia.

How many players in the Rebels squad came from Sydney clubs?

How have the activities of clubs in Sydney (who apparently no one else knows or cares about) held back rugby in Victoria?

I don't think that the current confrontation between the ARU and SRU is good for the game, but the ARU are at least in part responsible for the situation.

And as you are in Melbourne and have mentioned the VFL; don't the Melbourne based AFL clubs seek to preserve their influence within the game in much the same way? The AFL seem to be able to deal with their traditional clubs and clubs in expansion areas and manage the occasional friction. The AFL seem to recognise that the Melbourne clubs not only provide players for the national competition, but also the 100 years plus of tradition can't be bought or created easily. The Western Bulldogs don't have a huge following in Melbourne, but on grand final day the whole of the city wanted them to win - against the evil interlopers from an expansion state. No one accused them of trying to sabotage the game in the rest of the country, I love that us v them mentality in sport. It's the sort of tribalism which makes sport what it is. (The A in AFL stands for Australia too, but you don't reckon that just about everyone in the AFL wanted a Bulldog victory?) Instead of fighting it, some rugby people might like to harness it - they might even find that everyone benefits.

Your views seem at odds with basic human nature

 

[Slim 293]

I didn't quite follow that AFL analogy.........

Who are the Western Bulldogs supposed to represent?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Prehaps I was a tad over the top with the word war.

However assuming he does not have a point and that his friends like Alan Jones don't have influence is foolish.

You may not agree with him and think he is useless but the SS is ln 7,

Anyone who thinks he will go quietly into the night is wrong.

For starters he is on the Super radio network, Ss is on 7, Alan Jones is the top rating radio person in the country.

As to how what etc I have no idea but to assume he can be told to go away he very foolish.


'

Half most on here want different levels of rugby to work together for the betterment of the game of rugby they love. Most on here have been equally critical of aru strategic plan in a constructive fashion whilst acknowledging positives which thread when started was largely about.

It is very clear to all pundits and commentators that infighting and politics has to be left at the door as this held rugby back in the past. Constructive disagreement AND debate is what most want as most recognise need for change.

The manner in which ss administrators have conducted themselves with childish petitions that was nothing more than a rant than offering constructive solutions made many of the general rugby public very disappointed and plenty of social media threads to support this. If the ss administrators have put the gf on first round of Nrc no amount of bullshit excuses will be excused by the general rugby public and will.just further damage the game in oz just when some positive changes starting to bear fruit and will also only damage general rugby support for shute shield. If the calendar for ss per Robinson article is correct than that is final straw for me and might start a well argued and constructive petition to have begg and papworth removed from ss administration as I think I would get plenty of signatures for that!

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[I like to watch]

^^^^^you think Begg and Papworth have gone rogue?
I don't.
So petitions won't change anything.

As for the general public losing patience with SS clubs.
I see an awful lot of people at NRC games that I can identify from SS.
I think the most outraged are those that watch it on tv.
Many of the people that actually spend coin have a foot in both camps.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Newcomers to the game tend to identify more with club than with other levels. When they sign up for minis, they deal with the volunteers at the local village club. If the district club (SS in Sydney) works closely with the juniors (which is what they all should be doing), then the only experience that these newcomers have is with club-based people. Many will probably take their kids down to Manly Oval or Rat Park for home games and there will be coverage of Manly and/or Warringah every day in the local paper during winter, plus a once a week feature on the local subbies clubs.

I'd say that many people are far more likely to lose patience with an unseen hierarchy, which imposes a participation fee on 6 year olds than they are with their local club.

 

[barbarian]

The response to the articles on this site though suggest that there are far more rugby fans outside the Shute Shield tent than inside.

I'll use myself as an example - I'm a hardcore rugby fan, player, ref, writer. I watch the Shute Shield on Saturday arvos if I'm around the house. I went to North Sydney Oval to watch the GF. But do I actively support the Shute Shield? No. Do I have a specific club I support? No.

I care far more about the NRC, Waratahs and Wallabies. I think the vast majority of rugby fans in Australia fall into this camp.

I think one of the problems of Papworth, Begg and co is they are living in an echo chamber, surrounded by old club-heads like themselves. They think they are doing God's work here, because the people they surround themselves with are telling them that. But they can't see the forest for the trees.

I care a lot about junior club rugby, but when it boils down to it I don't really care about the Shute Shield. If we shifted the debate to the former (in the clubs vs ARU capacity) then I'd have a very different view to the one I have when it's just the Shute Shield teams squaring off against Pulver.
.

 

[Twoilms]

Pretty spot on Barbarian. Massive rugby fan since i was a child etc. I only care about North's because i played a little rugby in the North Shore as a kid. Havn't been to a game in my adult life nor watched more than one or two a year on TV.

Australian Rugby seems to get bogged down in tradition. The majority of our players still come from GPS schools (in 2016 for fuck sake) despite the fact that the vast majority of our natural talent lies in a completely different demographic.

The future is and should be the NRC as a feeder competition for Super teams. Australia clearly lacks easily followed progression pathways that other sports have. The NRC presents young lads with an opportunity to progress a fledgling rugby career, particularly for those not at or coming out of a GPS school.

The NRC should also be seen as an opportunity to expand the target market into areas that are not traditionally interested in Rugby. The SS has little influence in Western Sydney and the NRC has a clean brand that it can attempt to sell out there, if done right and in conjunction with targeting from the high levels.

Should be something like:

Suburban Club Rugby
High School Rugby
v
NRC
v
Super Rugby
v
Wallabies

If we also start producing some capable coaches at NRC level we might even see players coming into the wallabies as the near completed product, rather than having to extensively train and mould them IN the Wallabies camp.

I'd also like to point out that we should be implementing a similar structure in the Women's game, as that is growing and we have even less structure (none?) in the female side of the sport.

Edit: Also, ideally the NRC would precede Super Rugby on the Calendar. It would be even better to have it run concurrently to immediately reward or punish form with upwards and downwards mobility but Australian rugby clearly lacks the necessary depth for that.

 

[I like to watch]

Of course there are more rugby fans outside of the SS tent than in it.
No one would expect anyone but locals to support a SS team.

That doesn't mean that the SS tent is small, irrelevant and its interests should be ignored by the ARU.

I don't agree with this tactic.
But it's not a binary argument, both sides need to suck it up a bit,and find some common ground in everyone's best interests.

 

[Dave Beat]

I think one of the problems of Papworth, Begg and co is they are living in an echo chamber, surrounded by old club-heads like themselves. They think they are doing God's work here, because the people they surround themselves with are telling them that. But they can't see the forest for the trees.

I cringe at Papworth approach, but, believe he raises some very valid points poorly but it is important they are raised to create discussion and points raised.

Your reference to Begg, I haven't heard him being as loud at Pappy,
but he has been so supportive with what a group of us have been doing with junior rugby, a plan that is far greater than just the Marlins catchment. All us punters are volunteers who contribute time and support for our game - Beggy has moved on from being the President this year and I still hear of his involvement third hand.
Another example - Allamibe Jet in 2016 had an U6, U8, U9's team - Beggy when asked had no hesitation in spending the afternoon at our open day on a Friday Arvo mixing with the families - Forest / Trees - he was was mixing with and sewing the seeds so the grass roots grow.

Just sharing things that are often missed.

All good - understanding and agreeing with the point you are making.