Ditch Super rugby

[louie]

EXCLUSIVE: JOHN Kirwan has called for New Zealand to abandon Super Rugby and get back to the tribalism of its provinces as well as explore lucrative Japanese options to retain leading All Blacks in their region.

Kirwan sees a future where current All Blacks can ply their trade in money-rich Japan and still play tests for New Zealand.

As the All Blacks invade Tokyo for their Bledisloe Cup clash with Australia this week, All Blacks' great Kirwan was promoting links between New Zealand and Japan where he coaches the national team.

An open critic of the Super 14 – "it's a flawed competition" – Kirwan believes New Zealand is better to concentrate on its traditional provincial strength and look at developing a Heineken Cup-styled competition in the Pacific which would allow Japanese clubs to pay the wages of some All Blacks rather than lose them forever to the European scene.

Kirwan's comments are pertinent at a time when the complicated three-way Sanzar arrangement can't even agree on where their expansion team for next year's Super 15 should be based, going to arbitration to sort out the merits of Melbourne or South Africa's Eastern Cape.

They also come as the Air New Zealand Cup regains its glory and the Ranfurly Shield is housed in Invercargill.

Thrilled to see Tokyo hosting the Bledisloe and delighted with their 2019 World Cup hosting rights, Kirwan isn't happy with talk of Japan getting involved in Super Rugby down the line. And he doesn't think it's good for his beloved New Zealand either.

"I believe that New Zealand needs to get back to tribalism and traditionalism," Kirwan said.

"I think the public have stood up and said that this year.

"They have got in behind their provincial teams because they get it.

"What I have proposed to Australia and New Zealand is they break off and play an NRL-style competition between the two countries – eight provinces from New Zealand and five from Australia.

"They play that all year but, as they do in Europe, they break every six weeks or so and play a Heineken Cup Super rugby series where we can include an Island team, four or five Japanese teams, a side from the east coast of America.

"That way we play domestic and international tournaments.

"Unfortunately, with this idea we might have to leave the South Africans behind or they come in that Super series. But I think the sooner New Zealand get back to tribalism and provincialism the better New Zealand rugby will be."

Kirwan said Japan rugby was booming and could offer New Zealand more than New Zealand could offer them.

"To be honest we don't need anyone else from a financial and a growth point of view," Kirwan said. "Our top league is in good shape, we have fantastic sponsors, it's wealthy.
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"What we don't have at the moment is competition at a certain level. But it's how you get that – I believe in a strong domestic competition.

"I think the Super 14/15 is very good for Australian rugby because they have never had a domestic competition. But it's taking away from what New Zealand is all about and I don't want to make that mistake in Japan."

Under Kirwan's plan, which has been aired with New Zealand and Australian officials, All Blacks playing for top Japanese clubs could still be eligible to play test rugby because they would be playing in a competition alongside New Zealand provinces.

"What Australia and New Zealand need to do is to marry us because we do have the money," Kirwan said. "We are paying Stephen Larkham and George Gregan probably as much as any of the imported players are getting overseas.

"I think if New Zealand included the Japanese into their thoughts, then you can keep some of your topline players. You don't have to worry about losing them to England.

"Every six weeks the All Blacks coaches can see them play – they will be playing against Canterbury, Auckland and NSW. New Zealand can open up their borders and say they can pick people if they are playing in that Pacific competition.

"That way New Zealand can still keep their topline players playing for the All Blacks and earning what they need to earn."

i thnk i'd like to see this happen

 

[Scotty]

Doesn't he have links to Japan?

 

[Bruce Ross]

Doesn't he have links to Japan?

You mean other than the fact that, as the article states, "he coaches the national team"?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Scotty]

eh, article was too big for my little brain to swallow before my monday morning extra strong coffee.

 

[naza]

I wouldn't shed any tears if they ditched it.

 

[Biffo]

I quite like the concept amd would like to see it explored in detail.

For all its problems, S14, 15, 16 or N does have the great appeal of being a tier between province and national rugby. I would not like to lose that feature which I think is excellent for developing the very elitest players and keeping the Eurotrash under heel.

 

[Lindommer]

I wouldn't shed any tears if they ditched it.

I would. Super rugby's some of the best sport going around. It gives us Ozzies a serving of international sport outside of test matches where our teams can play against quality opponents. It also keeps 120 (soon to be 150) young rugby players in this country rather than chasing the euro, Pound or Yen.

 

[Spook]

I think our future lays with Japan and NZ. Aussies and Kiwis could play in the Japanese teams and still be eligible for their respective countries - which would be perfect. Just how much money could the Japanse bring to the game and could it compete the the Euro salaries?? Australia export more to Japan than any other country so the sponsors would approve.

I think a side based in Hong Kong might also be a good option. Get some Chinese $$$s on board. Big expat community.

 

[Spook]

I wouldn't shed any tears if they ditched it.

I would. Super rugby's some of the best sport going around. It gives us Ozzies a serving of international sport outside of test matches where our teams can play against quality opponents. It also keeps 120 (soon to be 150) young rugby players in this country rather than chasing the euro, Pound or Yen.

Lind, Aussie players in Japan could play in the same tournament as our current sides. It's a much better arrangement than having our guys off in Europe and totally disconnected from Aussie rugby.

 

[Scott Allen]

If we had five teams from Aus/NZ/Japan(HK), we'd still have the same number of players required for our 5 teams.

But if we allowed the Japanese teams to also include players from Aus and NZ, we'd probably see another 30 Australian players in the competition - that's got to help the depth in this country.

The dollars available if we got Japan and Hong Kong involved would certainly help us keep the best players.

We could use those dollars to reinvest in a revamped ARC to develop young players to meet the increased demand.

We also wouldn't have to put up with the SARU and their antics anymore.

 

[Lindommer]

It's going to be a bloody long time before Japanese rugby gets up to the standard of the Saffers, which it's suggested here it replace. I can't see how it ever will, even with a massive infusion of ANZAC talent.

For all their problems, and occasional intransigence, Saffers provide us with good hard rugby. I'm firmly of the opinion we jettison Saffer involvement in SH rugby at our peril. In another 50 years the Four Nations rugby tournament will be viewed as affectionately as its European predecessor.

 

[Scotty]

I don't think anyone is suggesting the cancelling of the 3N/4N, just the provincial equivalent.

It certainly has merit to set up a system similar to European rugby, with multiple competitions that also come together for a Heineken cup style of overall championship. This way some south american and japanese teams could be included along with NZ, Aus and SA. If this were to be done then the South Africans can have their currie cup run earlier in the year, and we can team up with NZ and possibly Japan for our domestic comp.

While I agree the standard of rugby would be reduced in our domestic comp, overall it would provide more games that people can watch in our time zone, and more games that have meaning to 'fringe' rugby supporters (ie more Aus vs Aus and Aus vs NZ games, which the Australian public relates to more than games vs SA teams - particularly considering their names).

And then you'd have a similar standard to the S14 for the 'heineken cup comp', with even greater intrigue due to the inclusion of teams from other nations. Tell me you wouldn't want to watch that?

 

[Biffo]

I think our future lays with Japan and NZ. Aussies and Kiwis could play in the Japanese teams and still be eligible for their respective countries - which would be perfect. Just how much money could the Japanese bring to the game and could it compete the the Euro salaries? Australia export more to Japan than any other country so the sponsors would approve.

I think a side based in Hong Kong might also be a good option. Get some Chinese $$$s on board. Big expat community.

1. Japan's rugby pays far higher wages (note, not "salaries" ) than does Europe.
2. Japan has far greater sponsorship potential than does Europe.
3. Hongkong is a good idea.

We might think also of South Korea.

The more I think about the proposal, the more I like it. It's simple and compact and removes the time zone factor which is clearly a massive impediment to real success of the current arrangements.

One minor difficulty is that Japan's seasons are the oppoosite of NZ and Australia.

We should be considering this proposal purely in the long term interests of Australia.

 

[PaarlBok]

Well I will be over the moon if they ditch super rugby. I cant see why Marinos havent done it when he had the change. The route they want to go by expanding the competition make no sense. The fact is that the local derbies are the crowd puller, specially in SA. This just serve our point that the CC need to be first importance if Marinos and kie have any brains. Ditch the whole Zansar concept including the 3 Nations and play CC and have long tours.

 

[Biffo]

The only problem I see with Kirwan's concept is the loss of the tier between province and international rugby which Sx provides. My solution would be to add a second national team competition somewhere. It might include NZ and Australia A teams, Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Japan, South Korea (sic) and perhaps the USA - i.e. tinker with the ongoing competition.

IMNSHO, the options for addition to the Kirwan concept should be thoroughly investigated.

 

[PaarlBok]

The only problem I see with Kirwan's concept is the loss of the tier between province and international rugby which Sx provides. My solution would be to add a second national team competition somewhere. It might include NZ and Australia A teams, Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Japan, South Korea (sic) and perhaps the USA - i.e. tinker with the ongoing competition.

IMNSHO, the options for addition to the Kirwan concept should be thoroughly investigated.

To be honest I feel the likes of Bok players like the Bulls lot like Bakkies, Matfield, FdP, exct had their hardest matches in our CC competition or local S14 derbies to what they had all year in their internationals. The Sharks Bok lot came to ground pretty quick in the CC semi last weekend and the CC final will be no different. The Bok players in both sides will know they are going to play their hardest matches they had all year.

 

[waratahjesus]

Well I will be over the moon if they ditch super rugby. I cant see why Marinos havent done it when he had the change. The route they want to go by expanding the competition make no sense. The fact is that the local derbies are the crowd puller, specially in SA. This just serve our point that the CC need to be first importance if Marinos and kie have any brains. Ditch the whole Zansar concept including the 3 Nations and play CC and have long tours.

Paarl,
i appreciate being a fan boy, i really do, i know a couple in fact, but south africa need sanzar as much as NZ or Aus for that matter, its called money, SA already sold there CC rights seperately and got more than the TV company could afford. a long CC is not going to suddently pay them 200 million odd more for there efforts.

also, this is going to come as a shocker, but compared to the all blacks, south africa arnt actually that big of a draw card away from south africa. if you have longer tours and play teams more often, then that game will become cheaper and such not make money and cause the game to suffer.

in australia and NZ, games between local teams then games between each other rate and pull greater atendence than any game v SA, this is not restricted to SA, thats why the super 15 format has gone to home and away against your home conference and only one round against others. its so they get the broadcasting rights and the attendence, SA were right to agree to it like the rest of SAZAR were its a very wise move.

John Kirwin is speaking out his ass, why the hell would you let you national side be coached by a winger anyway? what knowledge has he got to share besides catching and running in the tram tracks. dude ended his playing career in rugby league anyway!

the Japanese club scene is owned by big business, no team in australia or NZ is going to attract the same sponsorship or offer the same investment as the teams over there to a company. so there fore any joint venture between the two contrys would invovle players leaving aus to collect bigger paychecks there. its stupid and self serving like the western force board and the movie about the boks world cup win!

 

[PaarlBok]

Well I have a problem with the whole idea of a longer Super Rugby calender. Cant see more crowds getting to the game the way Super Rugby is directing. There should be less matches and less teams between the three countries.

The way things are going it look like they want to make a soapie like "Days of our Lifes" of rugby. Maximum 12 teams , maybe 9 should have been the way to go.