England v Australia

[KOB1987]

Wallabies coach Michael Cheika has flagged a scrum overhaul after the set piece floundered at the Twickenham graveyard, adamant Australia has to make huge technical and tactical changes before the World Cup.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/a...ing-after-scrum-disaster-20141129-11wxou.html

That would be useful..

 

[Cardiffblue]

Tbh Im not sure the team is in that bad place. The shortcomings of the current pack of forwards were clear before yesterday. The quality of the backline was papering over the cracks. It's better that the problem is recognised now than next year

The only thing you're missing out on in the run up to rwc is the right to sing Sh uber alles. No bad thing

 

[Cardiffblue]

I agree with the elephant in the room..the reality is that we had a bad year and as a result have fallen to 5th on the rankings. Despite this we are only a converted try per game from being #2..a differential we can make up through several areas in 12 months

Or if the cups seen as half empty, less than a single converted try away from being even lower.

You've just discovered the rankings are meaningless

 

[Rugbynutter39]

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was superb - just a pity in some ways our 2 best players both play 13....pity TK can't play inside centre....although Tonmua was great as was all the backs.....beale though was not much when came on...never been sure about horne as wing option but today made me eat my words as thought his positional play was excellent and offered something different to Tomane and Spreight in terms of roaming winger play....also watching Phipps versus white you appreciate how much quick service of Phipps makes such a difference

Foley has to be dissppointed at being replaced so early as played a great game and cementing his place as leading 10...

Game won and lost in forwards as we were just smashed......England's dominant forwards makes them one of favourites to win world cup just replace Twelvetrees and got pretty good backline as well.

What was disappointing is how unnoticeable Mcmahom and jones were in the game (even when jones moved to locks....have depth in openside flankers but not much on other side of scrum...desparately need Fardy back...

Fainga'a after giving him so many previous rapts was also pretty much not sighted....

So the positives....

- We have plenty of depth in 13 and openside flankers
- To'omua at 12 looks ok
- foley looking like good 10 option with Cooper as backup
- we will have depth in hookers when players return from injury

The concerns
1. Loosehead and Front row depth
2. second row depth and options
3. blindside flanker options and depth

2 & 1 are main concerns and in that order....can't see that being solved before RWC which is why I doubt we will even make semi''s

-

 

[KOB1987]

One thing I will point out from today's game is that those people who have been critical of Beale under the high ball need to have a look at speight there as well..he did not look comfortable at all. In fact when Beale took his spot they appeared to stop kicking to that wing

 

[Dazzling]

Quade, tamooa, dog, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) had great games. I don't understand all the doom and gloom. We could of won that game comfortably if not for a couple of bad passes and ball handling. We created all the chances but didn't finish. It's far from doom and gloom. We got smashed upfront and still should of won.

Completely agree with your views. I was in a box in the South stand at Twickenham with 11 Englishmen and they took no comfort from their win. In fact the common theme was " is this the best we can do after 3 years under Stuart Lancaster". England have advanced absolutely nowhere. Clueless in attack and reliant on one dimension - the power of their forwards. Australia played all the rugby, looked dangerous in attack and consistently made ground. Has anyone bothered to look at the metres gained stats? I'd much rather be in Michael Cheika's shoes than Stuart Lancasters'. We all know the seemingly perpetual scrum issues but is anyone honestly saying we as a race are somehow physically weaker? I'll back MC to sort out this in time for RWC 2015. Back on today and the scrum, I'll have to watch the replay but first thoughts are I don't understand why we seemed stable on our own feed yet got the wobbles when England fed the ball. It seems counter intuitive to the notion that when hooker have to strike for the ball the scrum is vulnerable? The overhead shots at the ground also seemed to suggest some strange angles from Davie Wilson on James Slipper.
I thought Matt To'omua completely eclipsed Billy Twelvetrees and that Will Skelton showed why he is worth the development time.

 

[Pfitzy]

So the positives..

- We have plenty of depth in 13 and openside flankers
- To'omua at 12 looks ok
- foley looking like good 10 option with Cooper as backup
- we will have depth in hookers when players return from injury

The concerns
1. Loosehead and Front row depth
2. second row depth and options
3. blindside flanker options and depth

2 & 1 are main concerns and in that order..can't see that being solved before RWC which is why I doubt we will even make semi''s

-

Haven't seen the game yet, but generally speaking: backs look fine, forwards not so much. Its an ongoing problem in Australian rugby where our forwards are not as valued as our backs.

 

[wamberal]

The concerns
1. Loosehead and Front row depth
2. second row depth and options
3. blindside flanker options and depth

2 & 1 are main concerns and in that order..can't see that being solved before RWC which is why I doubt we will even make semi''s

-

I agree that we will struggle, I will be surprised if we make the quarters.

However, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Coleman will step up as a serious lock option, maybe Skelton will mature.

Faulkner and Smith in the front row, ditto,

Pocock is another wild card in the back row.

If Moore comes back as good as ever, and a few smokies come good, I will be very happy to eat humble pie.

Cheika did a great job with the Tahs, his success was certainly not just about the style of play, it was about the team ethos, will to win, fitness, and self-belief.

By definition, our national characteristics are more suited to team sports than some of our competitors, the Soap Dodgers, for example. Properly harnessed, and with a lot of luck with injuries and a couple of of the wild cards coming good, and who knows?

 

[Pfitzy]

I'll have to watch the replay but first thoughts are I don't understand why we seemed stable on our own feed yet got the wobbles when England fed the ball. It seems counter intuitive to the notion that when hooker have to strike for the ball the scrum is vulnerable? The overhead shots at the ground also seemed to suggest some strange angles from Davie Wilson on James Slipper.

I haven't seen any of it, but as an ex-prop I can give you a theory:

WALLABY FEED
English back row aren't going to engage too heavily, because they know if a quick heel happens they could get caught on the scrum instead of trying to cover subsequent rucks. Depends where you are on the field of course, but anything middle of the park they're not going to risk leaving their backs at the mercy of a Wallaby back line.



ENGLAND FEED
On their own ball, they aren't looking to attack with their back line in any fashion. If they're in their own half, then like Italy they're going to forget about hooking, and just push over the ball, secure it, then try to draw a penalty to get downfield.

In our half, they'll do the same thing and try to kick penalty goals, then if they get a scrum within 10 metres go for the pushover or penalty try.

Which goes back to this point:

Completely agree with your views. I was in a box in the South stand at Twickenham with 11 Englishmen and they took no comfort from their win. In fact the common theme was " is this the best we can do after 3 years under Stuart Lancaster". England have advanced absolutely nowhere. Clueless in attack and reliant on one dimension - the power of their forwards.

So in effect you answered your own question

 

[Pfitzy]

If Moore comes back as good as ever, and a few smokies come good, I will be very happy to eat humble pie.

Judging by your form to date, you'd complain the pie wasn't cooked through.

 

[Dazzling]

I agree that we will struggle, I will be surprised if we make the quarters.

However, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Coleman will step up as a serious lock option, maybe Skelton will mature.

Faulkner and Smith in the front row, ditto,

Pocock is another wild card in the back row.

If Moore comes back as good as ever, and a few smokies come good, I will be very happy to eat humble pie.

Cheika did a great job with the Tahs, his success was certainly not just about the style of play, it was about the team ethos, will to win, fitness, and self-belief.

By definition, our national characteristics are more suited to team sports than some of our competitors, the Soap Dodgers, for example. Properly harnessed, and with a lot of luck with injuries and a couple of of the wild cards coming good, and who knows?

Agree with the sentiments on Cheika - exactly how he played the game for Randwick and exactly why I'm confident that come Sept 2015 we will be in the mix. Given that Cheika had next to no influence on who went on the EOYT, lets suspend judgement until we see a squad selected and trained 100% by Cheika. I think you might be right about Adam Coleman but I'd also put Caydern Neville in the frame as well. Yes for Toby Smith. The only position I'm struggling with is tighthead. PAE gone, BA is a no no, can Scott Sio be converted? How about the Allalatoa brothers?

 

[Dan54]

Thoroughly enjoyed test! Couple of thoughts as more or less neutral (though was supporting Wallabies), as everyone can see scrum is a big work on, not sure who thought Pom props were boring in or anything, because they looked miles straighter then Wallabies to me, apart from that forwards have to look like they mean it a bit more in most facets of play, look a little timid to me. Hooper was last night well out captained, when Poms score second try, he is to busy pushing shoving , and seemed to tell players to f*** off, instead of getting players together quickly to calm everyone, Robshaw after blow ups happen, can be seen pushing players apart, pointing at his head and calming them down. Wallaby backline looked pretty good, obviously everyone could see how well To'omua and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) played, was a touch impressed with Horne's work too. Got me stumped what will happen if Pocock comes back with any form, (he was bloody good 3-4 years ago, but..) as I tend to think I would run him at 7, Hooper very good with ball in hand etc, but I do tend to think he still gets lost in quality physical forward exchanges, use him as an impact player?
All in all, bloody enjoyable test, with Mrs Dan also even really enjoying it!!

 

[Tomikin]

Reckon it could have been a slightly different story if it was genia. White continues to make poor decisions, and memorable mistakes. Genia is on the up and up


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Like setting up a try, controlling the game well. Playing much better then the starting scrum half. Just cos you don't like him doesn't mean he was bad.

 

[Tex]

Was an interesting game to watch. Our ensemble game, when it clicked, was absolutely irresistible. Great support play, correct lines and deft play makers. The Soapies had little option but to cheat at the breakdown to stop some of the raids.

As exciting as it was to watch (dropped balls aside), it means sweet fuck all when your scrum and defensive maul is on roller skates and going south at a rate of knots.

I'm not excusing the loss or performance but I think it's important to keep some broad context in mind:
- new coach and new systems are clearly still being bedded in. There's room to improve and I expect that to happen
- the players have just finished a fairly gruelling season - full S15, tests/tours against NZ, Argentina, SA and France
- five weeks of back to back high intensity tests with said new coach and system
- a fairly bloody disruptive period with huge media interest and scrutiny in a largely negative light.

We'll come good. Despite what the Welsh birthers believe, we've got plenty of room to improve and I fully expect us to do so.

Enjoy the Christmas break gents. Like the players, lets take some time from the forum and let some of the acrimony die down and come back in Feb for the S15 preseason when the Rebels spank you all and go on to winning the big show.

Peace.

 

[TOCC]

Ive just watched the first 20min and there are clearly some illegal tactics been employed by England at the scrum.. Ultimately though these illegal tactics are all part of the 'scrum' and techniques to counter these tactics need to be employed, which Australia wasn't able to do.

Marler and Robshaw were angling in quite obviously in the first few scrums and this caused Kepu to buckle, a smart and illegal technique by England but there are means and ways counter this which Australia didn't do.

Firstly, i think Cheika needs to stop playing Hooper on the tight-head side of the scrum and get someone with reasonable size and strength who is committed to driving on the tight head prop.

 

[Tomikin]

Does anyone recall the discussion from earlier in the week that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is a 'distant' second to Kuridrani as a 13?

I don't think his a distant second to anyone, but he is still second. He's a better 13 then winger. I won't mention his passing.

 

[Dazzling]

Good, my eyes weren't deceiving me. It almost too trite to ask but why don't we learn from our mistakes? We continually look like babes in the wood and I'm pissed off with listenening to Swing low sweet chariot! Is Mike Cron or Phil Keith Rouse demonstrably better than Andrew Blades because I refuse to believe than somehow a 118kg Auusie is physically weaker than a 115kg Soap dodger!

 

[wamberal]

Judging by your form to date, you'd complain the pie wasn't cooked through.

I am always happy to speak the truth as I see it.


If you differ, I am always happy to engage in a rational debate, without the need to resort to childish insults.

 

[Tex]

By the way how good was the pass from Foley to the looping Phipps? Beautiful to watch and emblematic of what the Wallabies are trying to build up to.

 

[Ruggo]

Another lesson we could take from tonight was in relation to mauling. The more the shape of a pack's maul resembles a set scrum the more efficient and effective it will be. In this respect the England maul was exemplary. By contrast the Australian forwards were splintered and dangling around the fringe of the maul.

Not the sort of thing you concern yourself with when your focus is on smart, creative, attacking Pulverising rugby.
.

Depends on what you would describe as attractive. A craft executed well with technique and attention to detail is my idea of attractive rugby. Mauls and scrums remind me that rugby is a game of skill and intellect and if I was interested in dumbed down flair I would turn to league. Not to mention executing this craft would provide better opportunity for pulverising rugby which in itself can be a craft executed well.

We have never been the biggest or most physical side in the world but bring back the days when the international rugby community generally regarded us as the smartest and that was why we were such a difficult side to play.