Future of international rugby.

[Dan54]

Ok, I thought perhaps a new thread would be good to get posters ideas of what they think international rugby should look like going forward.
I read the posts where after many seemingly wanting tours etc, now NZ/SA are starting them it has become a bad thing.
I must admit to growing up and watching and loving rugby tours , both here in NZ or when ABs went to SA/SA/GB so maybe just an old bugger misremembering things. We just saw how successful Lions tour was to Aus and generally are here in NZ.

I am also hearing whispers NZR and RA are having quiet talks at moment about doing same tour scenario. NZ and SA are every 4 years and plenty of time between for Aus and NZ or even SA to do same. Wouldn't this be good to see again? Hell have the RC once every 4 years etc if need be, and lets see if we can have things that fans want? And why not same with Aus and England or France etc, though that a little harder with seasons etc I know.
Or do we all think how we are doing things at moment is the best? I personally think RC has become a little stale ( though this year looks a beauty). It's never going to have the 6N's history etc or even vibe ,well not that I can see.
I really think a shake up of international fixtures would be good.
And this is not just about NZ and Aus why I think it can be discussed seperately.

 

[Omar Comin']

I think the big thing test rugby is missing is a proper European Cup and a Rest of the World / Continental Cup (12 or 16 teams each). Then you'd have 2 extra marquee events in the middle of the cycle, and another chance for countries to host big tournaments.

Outside of that I don't mind trying the idea of inbound and outbound tours instead of the regular Rugby Championship in some years. It doesn't sound like the NZ/SA tours will fit into this though - they'll be longer.

 

[Tomikin]

Ok, I thought perhaps a new thread would be good to get posters ideas of what they think international rugby should look like going forward.
I read the posts where after many seemingly wanting tours etc, now NZ/SA are starting them it has become a bad thing.
I must admit to growing up and watching and loving rugby tours , both here in NZ or when ABs went to SA/SA/GB so maybe just an old bugger misremembering things. We just saw how successful Lions tour was to Aus and generally are here in NZ.

I am also hearing whispers NZR and RA are having quiet talks at moment about doing same tour scenario. NZ and SA are every 4 years and plenty of time between for Aus and NZ or even SA to do same. Wouldn't this be good to see again? Hell have the RC once every 4 years etc if need be, and lets see if we can have things that fans want? And why not same with Aus and England or France etc, though that a little harder with seasons etc I know.
Or do we all think how we are doing things at moment is the best? I personally think RC has become a little stale ( though this year looks a beauty). It's never going to have the 6N's history etc or even vibe ,well not that I can see.
I really think a shake up of international fixtures would be good.
And this is not just about NZ and Aus why I think it can be discussed seperately.

1/* I haven't seen anywhere that people want tours, especially at the expense of the Rugby Championship. Only NZ and SA did that. But maybe it is the way of the future, if we can't rely on our partners to work together, maybe we need to find better partners.

2/* So stale that all games in Australia so far have been sellouts, and Perth is as well. This all comes back to the unpredictability of the outcome. Imagine if we had that across Super Rugby.

 

[Dan54]

1/* I haven't seen anywhere that people want tours, especially at the expense of the Rugby Championship. Only NZ and SA did that. But maybe it is the way of the future, if we can't rely on our partners to work together, maybe we need to find better partners.

2/* So stale that all games in Australia so far have been sellouts, and Perth is as well. This all comes back to the unpredictability of the outcome. Imagine if we had that across Super Rugby.

I thought the Lions tour showed how popular tours are. I think we even miss out when we have say England/Wales etc coming down and we don.t use chance to give Super teams etc games against touring teams. Also great for when tour to another country to give players experience etc.
I agree this year has been good, but isn't this probably an exception rather than the rule?
I think if I bothered ,and went back I would find quite a number of posts saying tours were great and RC wasn't great over last few years.
But you right the unpredictability would be great in super, so we need to get it without cutting teams perhaps?

 

[Dan54]

I think the big thing test rugby is missing is a proper European Cup and a Rest of the World / Continental Cup (12 or 16 teams each). Then you'd have 2 extra marquee events in the middle of the cycle, and another chance for countries to host big tournaments.

Outside of that I don't mind trying the idea of inbound and outbound tours instead of the regular Rugby Championship in some years. It doesn't sound like the NZ/SA tours will fit into this though - they'll be longer.

Yep Omar, I not suggesting they need to be every year, but every 4 years is a start, but even doing what NZ/SA are doing could be worked into RC if needed every couple of years. Why not have ABs or SA play Wallabies first in RC and do it as part of a tour involving super teams. I only trying to think of things to excite us like this year, and impression I get is rugby is on a high in Aus after Lions tour?
Mind you that's just my impression from over here, and admit I not there so don't know if it actually is.
As I said, I have heard the RA have had some early discussions with NZR about doing similar.
Also add I was talking to quite few Saffa supporters in Wellington last weekend, and were saying how much they were enjoying it, and wanted longer tours . Mind you a couple of them were my age group and remembered the fun of when proper tours happened.

 

[Strewthcobber]

remembered the fun of when proper tours happened.

Pretty different attitude in Australia and NZ rugby to tours, we never really had the excitement around them like you did, so there isn't the nostalgia here like there is there. Probably a bit controversial on here - but it was the Kangaroo tours (RL) up to the mid-90s that captured some of that.

 

[Tomikin]

I thought the Lions tour showed how popular tours are. I think we even miss out when we have say England/Wales etc coming down and we don.t use chance to give Super teams etc games against touring teams. Also great for when tour to another country to give players experience etc.
I agree this year has been good, but isn't this probably an exception rather than the rule?
I think if I bothered ,and went back I would find quite a number of posts saying tours were great and RC wasn't great over last few years.
But you right the unpredictability would be great in super, so we need to get it without cutting teams perhaps?

1/* LOL Lions tours are a different breed to Wales or even England, although I could see a more formal tour with England being a money spinner, as someone said, like the Ashes.

2/* It's all come from Wallabies and Argies being better and the Springbok and All Blacks, not quite as good.

3/* Super Rugby
NZ allowing players to be selected from any Super Rugby team might help. A standardised salary cap across all teams, not just Australia's enforced one.

I know it's more nuanced than I put above, and would probably require revenue sharing, and 'clubs' high-performance units to work with both NZRU and ARU directly, and an understanding that this will happen.

 

[Dan54]

Pretty different attitude in Australia and NZ rugby to tours, we never really had the excitement around them like you did, so there isn't the nostalgia here like there is there. Probably a bit controversial on here - but it was the Kangaroo tours (RL) up to the mid-90s that captured some of that.

Yep perhaps that right Strewth, I remember seeing the Wallabies in Manawatu on Campese's first tour , and how much fun it was. When Lions toured one time I saw a test and 2/3 other games in Wellington. So perhaps it a kiwi/saffa thing in SH as we have done it for years.
I know ABs used to tour Aus, (I got a mate at golf club in the Naki here who played No 8 for Vic against them) , and perhaps assumed (wrongly it seems) that Aus were into tours like us.

 

[Dan54]

1/* LOL Lions tours are a different breed to Wales or even England, although I could see a more formal tour with England being a money spinner, as someone said, like the Ashes.

2/* It's all come from Wallabies and Argies being better and the Springbok and All Blacks, not quite as good.

3/* Super Rugby
NZ allowing players to be selected from any Super Rugby team might help. A standardised salary cap across all teams, not just Australia's enforced one.

I know it's more nuanced than I put above, and would probably require revenue sharing, and 'clubs' high-performance units to work with both NZRU and ARU directly, and an understanding that this will happen.

On point 1, well I suggested Wales/England etc, as just looking for someone who would be considered a traditonal rival. But perhaps as Strewth says the idea of yours is more a kiwi/saffa thing? Shame as they so much fun when teams do it.
Yep agree especially on point 2 , has made this RC great. Perhaps if we had more like it we wouldn't be thinking it too same.
Super changing eligibilty rules might not be the silver spoon many think, what happens if a lot of good Aus players came to NZ teams?

 

[Wilson]

Super changing eligibilty rules might not be the silver spoon many think, what happens if a lot of good Aus players came to NZ teams?

Why would that be an issue?

 

[Tomikin]

On point 1, well I suggested Wales/England etc, as just looking for someone who would be considered a traditonal rival. But perhaps as Strewth says the idea of yours is more a kiwi/saffa thing? Shame as they so much fun when teams do it.
Yep agree especially on point 2 , has made this RC great. Perhaps if we had more like it we wouldn't be thinking it too same.
Super changing eligibilty rules might not be the silver spoon many think, what happens if a lot of good Aus players came to NZ teams?

As I said, there's a lot more than just open eligibility rules, levelling out the salary cap, I dont think its exactly a silver spoon but being able to target lets say an All Black centre to replace Ikitau for the year, would make the Brumbies better, and the other way too, you guys are struggling for good 10's we can send you some

 

[Dan54]

Why would that be an issue?

Just everyone says that ABs should play in Aus, I have never read a post where anyone has suggested the opposite is all.

 

[Dan54]

As I said, there's a lot more than just open eligibility rules, levelling out the salary cap, I dont think its exactly a silver spoon but being able to target lets say an All Black centre to replace Ikitau for the year, would make the Brumbies better, and the other way too, you guys are struggling for good 10's we can send you some

Good try mate, but not thanks, we will stick with 10s we got! Lol and one thing we haven't got is spare midfielders.

 

[Wilson]

Just everyone says that ABs should play in Aus, I have never read a post where anyone has suggested the opposite is all.

It has been repeatedly suggested directly to you that open selection across the competition would increase interest, at least when paired with a competition wide salary cap equivalent levelling mechanism. It would give Australian fans reasons to follow kiwi teams and vice versa, while also generating broader interest in trade markets and recruitment decisions. The only reason it's suggested specifically as NZ opening up their selection laws is because theirs are the ones that would need change for it to happen

 

[Strewthcobber]

So perhaps it a kiwi/saffa thing in SH as we have done it for years.
I know ABs used to tour Aus, (I got a mate at golf club in the Naki here who played No 8 for Vic against them) , and perhaps assumed (wrongly it seems) that Aus were into tours like us.

My guess is the "romance" around tours that NZ people remember stopped here after all of the controversy of the 1971 tour, and then our participation in the boycott

 

[Dan54]

My guess is the "romance" around tours that NZ people remember stopped here after all of the controversy of the 1971 tour, and then our participation in the boycott

I didn't realise Aus boycotted NZ (or do you mean Aus were boycotted?) after 1981 (tour by Boks was then), and I wasn't really aware of your problems with 1971 tour to Aus (I was only 16 and took no notice of anything in those days lol). Hell I was at packed game in 82 when Wallabies played Manawatu (believe it was where I first saw Campo and also the joy of seeing one Mark Ella, one of the supreme 10s), and seem to recall they were in NZ a couple more times in 80sor early 90s). But no tours were still bloody popular after that tour Hell the games I went to in Wellington etc were for Lions and Wales , and even midweek games (during day) were pretty full.
But as you say perhaps tours were more or are a NZ and SA thing so best left at that? I know the ABs were filling out parks etc when they played in NH.
But anyway fair enough, I was interested to get opinions of what people thought of tour happening, especially with whispers that RA and NZR have been having a chat about doing similar to what NZ and SA are doing.

 

[Dan54]

It has been repeatedly suggested directly to you that open selection across the competition would increase interest, at least when paired with a competition wide salary cap equivalent levelling mechanism. It would give Australian fans reasons to follow kiwi teams and vice versa, while also generating broader interest in trade markets and recruitment decisions. The only reason it's suggested specifically as NZ opening up their selection laws is because theirs are the ones that would need change for it to happen

Yep I get your point, I must admit I not for it as it could get too messy with players being contracted to say RA while playing for a NZ team and vice versa, as from what I understand the RA and NZR actually help pay the super players wages. so would be very confusing.
I also not sure it would work anyway, when someone like BB went from Canes to Blues, I didn't follow the Blues, just BB was no longer one of the team I support. Same as when NZ players have been playing for Reds (Adam Thomson, Toomaga-Allen etc) play for Reds, doesn't make anyone I know support or follow Reds more or less.
Salary cap I thought was similar over both countries ,but not something I take a lot of notice of as players get top ups from RA and NZR that don't show in cap.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I didn't realise Aus boycotted NZ (or do you mean Aus were boycotted?) after 1981 (tour by Boks was then), and I wasn't really aware of your problems with 1971 tour to Aus (I was only 16 and took no notice of anything in those days lol).

No, I meant Australia participated in the boycott of South Africa from 1972, after huge protests here in 1971. It was a bigger issue a lot earlier in Australia than in NZ

After that (and not really related) we barely had a three match tour of one country again - mainly cause we were pretty crap in the 70s. Only really the odd NZ tours

 

[Giulia]

Six Nations teams won't/can't pick a full strength side when they play in Australia. A tour will get nowhere near the Lions as a big spectacle while that's the case. That said RA may yet decide it's their best option if the alternative is hosting Argentina & lesser countries more than they already do.

 

[moa999]

Having a Lions tour more than once every 12yrs would also help.. but without losing the history of it.

The AUNZ invitational team didn't really work, but wonder if the Kiwis would return that favour.

Some talk about a pre-game in Las Vegas, but suspect it would be Argentina.

Other interesting question is how the Kiwis ultimately exit the Silver Lake deal given current cash flows.
Could they say sell one of the games to Melbourne or Sydney with some state govt money plus additional gate receipts.