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Highlanders v Queensland Reds, Forsyth Barr Stadium, Friday 26 May

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
You only have to look at what happens close to the try line to realise you can’t totally remove head contact from the game.
Every pick and drive at the try line has attacking players with their heads lower than their hips and defensive players hitting them with whatever part of their body that will stop them.
If rugby seriously wanted to reduce this risk (although it's doubtful they do) I wonder if they could make it like American Football?

Be a huge change I know ... but you obviously don't have ground the ball in NFL for a touchdown (misnamed though it is).

Just glad Vest is ok. Watching it last night the commentators mention it was good to see him on his feet making his own way off the field. How wrong that could have gone!
An unstable C7 fracture could have seen him a paraplegic.
Yep.
 

elementfreak

Trevor Allan (34)
Wow, shoulder straight to head of Vest and no penalty? Pretty sure his neck isn’t supposed to bend that way.

Nothing to see here though….

View attachment 16178
That’s not foul play. 6 blue is bent at the hips, his arm was up to warp after contact with the shoulder, you know how we teach kids to tackle, but Reds 5 is so far bent over there isn’t anything the Highlanders player can do.
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
That’s not foul play. 6 blue is bent at the hips, his arm was up to warp after contact with the shoulder, you know how we teach kids to tackle, but Reds 5 is so far bent over there isn’t anything the Highlanders player can do.
there isn't anything he could do bar shoulder charge him? No arms tackle? He couldn't step to the side and tackle him around the body?
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Reds have lodged an official complaint via RUPA...


The Reds’ notification embraces multiple points around player welfare.

Firstly, that SANZAAR felt no citing was warranted around the contact that jolted Vest’s head and, secondly, that he appeared to be hurried off the field even though a neck injury had been signaled.

The latter point is quite concerning...
 

Maulalltheway

Ted Thorn (20)
there isn't anything he could do bar shoulder charge him? No arms tackle? He couldn't step to the side and tackle him around the body?
Reds have lodged an official complaint via RUPA...


It should have been a red card.
According to the current Head contact process it should be a red card. the TMO and now SANZAR have both bottled this. Not surprisingly Pickerall has also.
Direct contact to head, Leads with shoulder, no attempt to wrap, always illegal act. fits straight into the red card head contact range.
Mitigation doesn't apply to always illegal acts, and a shoulder charge is an always illegal act.

if you shoulder charge and hit the head its a red card if the guidelines are followed and this is why.... It broke his neck!
 

LeCheese

Jim Lenehan (48)
Wallabies halfback Tate McDermott has ticked the initial boxes of his return to play protocols following his head knock in Dunedin and is some chance of playing.
Hang on, aren't we doing mandatory (10 day?) stand downs for a failed HIA?
 

LeCheese

Jim Lenehan (48)
The latter point is quite concerning...
Just watched it again paying attention to what Pickerill says - when Vest is still receiving treatment on the ground, Pickerill asks "is he going to stay on?" - shortly after, Pickerill says "we have a HIA so he's gotta go off." A bit of discussion between the trainers and Pickerill follows, and seems to conclude with Pickerill saying what sounds like "yeah yeah but we've gotta get him off".

Not sure if he was hurried off per se, but it doesn't seem like there was a level of concern warranted for a possible neck/spinal injury.

Also interesting to hear Tate pleading with Pickerill to check it - he says "I didn't see anything at all", so asked TMO to check, who came back with "no foul play at all". Tate asks to have a look a couple more times to no avail, being met with "mate we've cleared it"
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Ok if ref said can you hurry up and knew it was a possible broken neck it's shit, I will be very very surprised if he did, and would be even more surprised if Reds medical team would rush it anyway, and if they stood him up and walked him off with a broken neck , there should be a huge investigation.
And Reds would surely of cited if they thought it met threshold shouldn't they? I am real confused about whole story.
 

TSR

Mark Ella (57)
Frizell didn‘t even get close to wrapping his arms, it’s fine to discuss mitigation about the height of the tackle from a Red to a Yellow, but it’s still ignoring the glaring issue of the Frizell shoulder charge directly into the head of Vest. Regardless of height you cannot shoulder charge. You can’t shift the blame onto Vest because Frizell led with his shoulder into his head.
Fair points Adam. I commented previously on the tackle height but completely missed the lack of arms. I haven’t reviewed it myself but definitely sounds an illegal hit based on yours and other comments.
 

LeCheese

Jim Lenehan (48)
And Reds would surely of cited if they thought it met threshold shouldn't they?
The teams don't have any say in citation procedure as far as I'm aware - SANZAAR reviews possible incidents and, if they feel it has met the threshold to require further action, they will cite it and go through that process. Possibly the teams are able to refer incidents of what they think is foul play, formally or otherwise, but ultimately it's SANZAAR who decide whether any further action is explored.

In this case, following SANZAAR's dismissal of the three incidents, the Reds have gone to RUPA, who I imagine will ask SANZAAR for a please explain.

If what I've heard is correct, this is not the first time this season that the Reds have engaged in this process, and feel justified in doing so following Fa'agase's citation after the Drua game. Again, it's about consistency, or lack thereof.
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
@LeCheese , you could be right, it may of been changed, but I kind of recall that you used to be able to do it. Just I was getting the idea of creative writing in whole thing though. I may of believed it , but the part about Ref rushing Vest off is crazy, because the ref is miked up, and it's an insult to the Reds medical staff to say they would rush him off, with a potential broken neck. I said at time I had impression it was because I thought Vest fell into him as much as anything, but was more than happy if it was cited and looked at agin by board anyway. But you could be right they maybe getting RUPA to ask why their thoughts are etc.
Whoops seem Reds did cite him and citing commissioner said it didn't meet threshold, so seems can still cite.
 
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Ignoto

Greg Davis (50)
You see the Reds physio immediately brace Connors head when he arrives though?

Why didn't Pickerill immediately call the doctors or the cart to come and get him? It's just another example of poor game management by him.

I don't understand why your surprised by the commissioner not looking at it. Given the heigh of Connor and Shannon not coming at force, there's mitigation to drop it from a red to a yellow.

I count at least three yellow cards missed for dangerous tackles, Makiola, Frizell and Hunt.

I'm also not surprised nothing was done about the flop on Wright. There's a history of Kiwi players causing significant injuries to Reds players post try.

The entirity of NZ boos Quade a decade plus since the infamous shove!
 

Dismal Pillock

David Codey (61)
The entirity of NZ boos Quade a decade plus since the infamous shove!
mccawquade2.jpg
 

LeCheese

Jim Lenehan (48)
You see the Reds physio immediately brace Connors head when he arrives though?

Why didn't Pickerill immediately call the doctors or the cart to come and get him? It's just another example of poor game management by him.
In all fairness, it isn't Pickerill's job to determine the extent of a player's injury, and the on-field management of it, over and above stopping the game and signalling for the trainers as required.

The Reds' trainers/physios/doctors on the field obviously assessed Vest on the ground, after initially bracing his head/neck (which is always the first step in any possible spinal), and determined that there was no need for him to be stretchered off. Despite some of my thoughts around his management of the situation, I cannot envision a scenario where Pickerill turned down a request for a medicab from the medical staff.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
With the HIA for Vest and the way he walked off the field perhaps him and the Reds staff were still of the view that he might be right to return to the field?

I imagine Vest played a significant role in getting up and walking off and it wasn't done just because there were questions being asked by the referee as to how the issue was progressing.

It was definitely a failure on multiple levels.
 

liquor box

Peter Sullivan (51)
You see the Reds physio immediately brace Connors head when he arrives though?

Why didn't Pickerill immediately call the doctors or the cart to come and get him? It's just another example of poor game management by him.

I don't understand why your surprised by the commissioner not looking at it. Given the heigh of Connor and Shannon not coming at force, there's mitigation to drop it from a red to a yellow.

I count at least three yellow cards missed for dangerous tackles, Makiola, Frizell and Hunt.

I'm also not surprised nothing was done about the flop on Wright. There's a history of Kiwi players causing significant injuries to Reds players post try.

The entirity of NZ boos Quade a decade plus since the infamous shove!
This is the first genuine neck injury that I can recall where both teams medics were not involved.

I wonder if the Reds were not confident of how serious it was at the initial assessment.
 

The Nomad

Bob Davidson (42)
This is the first genuine neck injury that I can recall where both teams medics were not involved.

I wonder if the Reds were not confident of how serious it was at the initial assessment.
Every head knock should get treated as a potential neck injury. It seems bizarre that the incident got reviewed and cleared of foul play, but none were concerned that Vests’ neck went sideways and what that might mean.

Makes missing a forward pass seem pretty insignificant.
 
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