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Learning from the enemy – an affordable Third Tier competition

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Bardon

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Posted the below a while ago in the Ideas for Aus Rugby thread. Really like Bruce's idea of having the top club teams from established Rugby areas involved. Also believe that teams from non Rugby areas should be involved as mentioned in my other post below.

So for Aus rugby as it stands maybe a national competition a tier below Super level that allowed the 5 existing franchises to play an "A" team in it. Then fill out the other spots with teams from places, that in the future, might have a S15 franchise.

This would give the extra benefit to the Super rugby teams of a competitive place for their fringe players and players returning from injury to play. But also would mean that players on developmental contracts could play together regularly and build up the understanding that will benefit them in the future. It would also make it easier to determine who's best equipped to step up to Super level.

Also if in the future Aus decides to have a 6th and 7th Super franchise there's a pool of players to choose from. Plus if it's in a non-traditional rugby area the 2nd tier comp could lay the foundations in terms of building a fan base.
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kiap

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
An interesting thing about the NEAFL is that it includes conferences.
The NEAFL consists of two conferences: the Northern Conference (Qld & NT teams) and the Eastern Conference (NSW & ACT teams).
For the majority of the year, teams play other teams within their respective conferences.
However, the key point of difference between other state leagues and the NEAFL is that all teams will be able to play cross-conference games and travel interstate.
Teams within each conference still compete for the awards and premiership success within their own conference, but the winner of each conference also then goes on to play in the NEAFL Grand Final.
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http://www.neafl.com.au/index.php?id=9

Maybe rugby could follow suit as it cuts down a bit on travel costs.

e.g.

3 conferences x 4 teams (I'm just plucking out some club names here)
Code: 
North        East        South
------      -----        -----
Reds        Waratahs    Brumbies
Brothers    Eastwood    Force
Easts       Sydney Uni  Rebels
UQ          Manly       Tuggeranong
Each team plays:
A. Teams in their own conference twice (Home and Away) = 6 rounds; plus
B. Teams in the other conferences once (Home or Away) = 8 rounds.

or

2 conferences x 5 teams
Code: 
North      South
-----      ------
Reds        Brumbies
Waratahs    Force
Eastwood    Rebels
Brothers    Sydney Uni
Easts       Tuggeranong
Each team plays:
A. Teams in their own conference twice (Home and Away) = 8 rounds; plus
B. Teams in the other conferences once (Home or Away) = 5 rounds.
 
FiveStarStu

FiveStarStu

Bill McLean (32)
Say what you like about the AFL, but they are run by some smart cookies. Two of the most recent AFL innovations, the aforementioned NEAFL and the Foxtel Cup, are things the ARU needs to learn from.

The Foxtel Cup is almost entirely funded by Foxtel, and was created as precursor to the billion-dollar deal. It is straight knockout, and there is a maximum of one game a week that is broadcast as a curtain raiser to the Saturday Fox Footy game. This also keeps travel costs down. The scheduling is usually spot-on, the only issues arising from when AFL clubs don't have access to reserve players when they're in the Foxtel Cup interstate - so it's only an issue for any particular club once a year, and not an issue at all for several clubs.

Best thing is, it's a start. A small, cheap, easy start.

This is how I could see a similar comp playing out, according to this year's fixture (all clubs and results speculative):

16 ENTRANTS

WARATAHS A PLUS TOP 3 SHUTE SHIELD
Eastwood
Sydney Uni
Randwick

REDS A PLUS TOP 3 QPR
Brothers
Sunnybank
University

BRUMBIES A PLUS TOP 2 ACTRU
Tuggeranong
Gungahlin

REBEL RISING PLUS TOP 2 DEWAR SHIELD
Melbourne
Harlequin

FORCE GOLD PLUS TOP 1 RUGBYWA
UWA

Round of 16:

Super Rugby RD1: 25 Feb 12 - Sydney Uni v Waratahs A - curtain raiser to Waratahs v Reds
Super Rugby RD2: 3 Mar 12 - UQ v Reds A - curtain raiser to Reds v Force
Super Rugby RD3: 9 Mar 12 - Force Gold v UWA - curtain raiser to Force v Hurricanes
Super Rugby RD4: 18 Mar 12 - Melbourne v Harlequin - curtain raiser to Rebels v Cheetahs
Super Rugby RD5: 24 Mar 12 - Eastwood v Randwick - curtain raiser to Waratahs v Sharks
Super Rugby RD6: 31 Mar 12 - Tuggeranong v Gungahlin - curtain raiser to Brumbies v Sharks
Super Rugby RD7: 6 Apr 12 - Brothers v Sunnybank - curtain raiser to Reds v Brumbies
Super Rugby RD8: 14 Apr 12 - Brumbies A v Rebel Rising - curtain raiser to Brumbies v Rebels

Quarter Finals

Super Rugby RD10: 29 Apr 12 - Sydney Uni v Reds A - curtain raiser to Waratahs v Crusaders
Super Rugby RD11: 5 May 12 - Tuggeranong v Randwick - curtain raiser to Brumbies v Waratahs
Super Rugby RD12: 12 May 12 - Harlequin v UWA - curtain raiser to Rebels v Crusaders
Super Rugby RD13: 19 May 12 - Brothers v Rebel Rising - curtain raiser to Reds v Lions

Semi Finals

Super Rugby RD15: 1 Jun 12 - Sydney Uni v Tuggeranong - curtain raiser to Waratahs v Hurricanes
Super Rugby RD16: 29 Jun 12 - Harlequin v Brothers - curtain raiser to Rebels v Reds

Grand Final

Super Rugby RD18: 14 Jul 12 - Sydney Uni v Brothers - curtain raiser to Reds v Waratahs
 
Ruggo

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
How about trying to morph the old ARC and ARS into one comp. Our third tier needs to be a tool to expand the game.

NEAFL is a fantastic comp. I find AFL a great sport to watch live and the NT Thunder is the closest thing we have to elite sport in the NT. I also appreciate how the game is spread around the NT with the Thunder playing home games in both the Alice and in Darwin.
 
Bowside

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
I dont think this competition would be supported well by the general public. I suspect many would not want to see their club team play their state as they wouldn't know who to support.

I would rather see the super rugby teams each put out a 2nd XV/academy/U21 team and then have them play a round robin competition with the equivalent teams from NZ.
 
Dave Beat

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Randwick??? Hasn't been near the Club Championships for a while.

Great idea, teams need to have a strong club base / depth. Whilst there is the curtain raiser approach for the derbies i think it would be wise to keep the club involved so they to benefit and assist with ongoing growth.

Could the colts also be included?

Nothing better than getting down early and watching 4 grades play.

The ARC impacted the Club Comp
 
Inside Shoulder

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Bowside said:
I dont think this competition would be supported well by the general public. I suspect many would not want to see their club team play their state as they wouldn't know who to support.

I would rather see the super rugby teams each put out a 2nd XV/academy/U21 team and then have them play a round robin competition with the equivalent teams from NZ.
Click to expand...

I think you're right about public support - but this isn't really about that as i see it: this is about recognising that a production line is needed.
I think a Sydney club team playing the BabyTahs could see a very interesting split in the crowd...and the player rivalries could be sensational with guys coming up against blokes they think they're better than and whose contract with the Tahs they think they should have.
You cant limit the comp on the basis of age for at least 2 reasons: the young blokes need to be cracking heads with old blokes so they're learning and part of our problem is that, in every position, if you havent "made it" by the time youre 21 youre beyond consideration in this country. We need to be able to hold blokes back for longer and not be afraid to give a 25 year old a chance at the big time because how good you were when you were 17 is not necessarily the best indicator of how good you will be.
NZ will not give up there provincial comp no matter what - its the reason for their dominance.
 
kiap

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
Inside Shoulder said:
You cant limit the comp on the basis of age for at least 2 reasons: the young blokes need to be cracking heads with old blokes so they're learning and part of our problem is that, in every position, if you havent "made it" by the time youre 21 youre beyond consideration in this country. We need to be able to hold blokes back for longer and not be afraid to give a 25 year old a chance at the big time because how good you were when you were 17 is not necessarily the best indicator of how good you will be.
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Yep. Especially for front rows.
 
Bowside

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Inside Shoulder said:
You cant limit the comp on the basis of age for at least 2 reasons: the young blokes need to be cracking heads with old blokes so they're learning and part of our problem is that, in every position, if you havent "made it" by the time youre 21 youre beyond consideration in this country. We need to be able to hold blokes back for longer and not be afraid to give a 25 year old a chance at the big time because how good you were when you were 17 is not necessarily the best indicator of how good you will be.
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Club rugby, in Brisbane at least, is a young mans game now days. There are still a few old blokes running round, but if players are any decent they will usually have picked up a contract, either here or overseas, by the time they are in there early-mid 20s.

If the sole purpose of this competition is development then limiting the competition by age insures that the production line of talent keeps ticking over. You can't totally judge players by their talent as 17 year olds, but realistically, if a player has not shown anything by they time they are 21 after being part of a professional training program and playing regular high quality rugby then they will probably not make it at the highest level. The exception here is tight 5 players, but even then, they will have shown some indication of their potential by the time they are 21.

Besides, if players get to 21 and haven't been signed there is always club rugby after that. This comp wont totally replace club rugby as it will not run long enough.

Inside Shoulder said:
NZ will not give up there provincial comp no matter what - its the reason for their dominance.
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NZ wont have to give up their provincial comp. These games could be played as curtain raisers during super rugby season and the competition would be finished long before the NZ provincial comp starts.
 
WorkingClassRugger

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Ruggo said:
How about trying to morph the old ARC and ARS into one comp. Our third tier needs to be a tool to expand the game.

NEAFL is a fantastic comp. I find AFL a great sport to watch live and the NT Thunder is the closest thing we have to elite sport in the NT. I also appreciate how the game is spread around the NT with the Thunder playing home games in both the Alice and in Darwin.
Click to expand...

Personally, I'd prefer this idea. I'm not opposed to Bruce's model but just think it would be a fairer outcome for all concerned if we tried to make it a provincial set up. Use the current 5 Super Rugby squads not called into Super Rugby and add a team from each region with the best up and comer's from the respective clubs. Ten teams, 9 games od good quality.
 
I like to watch

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Bowside said:
I dont think this competition would be supported well by the general public. I suspect many would not want to see their club team play their state as they wouldn't know who to support.
Click to expand...
Look at the crowd at a Shute Shield match, it is little more than family & girlfriends, lower graders & their family & girlfriends.
It is hardly well supported by the general public.
Any 3rd tier comp is more about the players than the public.
 
Dave Beat

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
I like to watch said:
Look at the crowd at a Shute Shield match, it is little more than family & girlfriends, lower graders & their family & girlfriends.
It is hardly well supported by the general public.
Any 3rd tier comp is more about the players than the public.
Click to expand...

Each to there own - I enjoy going to club rugby more than super rugby.
It should be about both, the public need to support our game - Shute Shield / 3rd Tier / Super Rugby - The Tah's suffered this year with crowds.
Not sure who you support, an example of what I'd like to see this weekend;
Manly V Uni - 4th / 3rd / 2nd - 1st grade 3pm kick off.
North Harbour / South Harbour under 21 colts - 5:30
North Harbour / South Harbour grade - 7:30
In addition to Nth & Sth harbour there could be ACT, NSW Country.
 
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