Mark Ella calls it like it is

[Scarfman]

Douglas will be playing in about 6 weeks, then.

 

[Reddy!]

Not sure where to post this but I will do it here.

After the talk about "needing 5-6 world class players in our starting 15 to win a World Cup" it got me thinking whether or not we even have 5 or 6 players that command a starting position in the Wallabies, let alone a World XV.

So who fits this bill from the team that played against Ireland?

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Elsom (c) - Fortunately for him, he is captain.
7. Pocock
8.
9.
10. Cooper
11. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
12.
13.
14.
15.

I challenge you to come up with any more players who played on the weekend. And I guess the point I am trying to make is that there are a fair few players who probably are lucky to be playing test rugby.

Now from the injured list you would probably add: Sharpe, Genia, Robinson, TPN, Palu and that would just about do it.

 

[Langthorne]

Another suggestion is that you need a number of World XV players to win it - best case, how many do we have? Maybe 1 (if fit) - Robinson. There might be a couple of others who would make the bench in a World 22, but that is it.

 

[Scarfman]

TPN would go close to a World XV.

Palu not a million miles off.

Genia in the mix.

A good 10 is hard to find - Cooper in the mix.

None of the rest of the backs would get close.

 

[fatprop]

TPN would go close to a World XV.

Palu not a million miles off.

Genia in the mix.

A good 10 is hard to find - Cooper in the mix.

None of the rest of the backs would get close.

None are the best in their position, including all the wounded,

Genia isn't as good as FDP,
Cooper is at least behind Carter & Steyne for a start.
Palu wouldn't be in the top 4 (Read, Spies, Parisse & Harinordoquy are all better units)
Elsom has been average as well

 

[RedsHappy]

None are the best in their position, including all the wounded,

Genia isn't as good as FDP,
Cooper is at least behind Carter & Steyne for a start.
Palu wouldn't be in the top 4 (Read, Spies, Parisse & Harinordoquy are all better units)
Elsom has been average as well

We'll all need some of that ARU-labelled Prozac soon, like the rugby media have been issued (until Wayne S today who is at last contemplating a change of coach!)...

 

[fatprop]

We'll all need some of that ARU-labelled Prozac soon, like the rugby media have been issued (until Wayne S today who is at last contemplating a change of coach!)...

The coach isn't the problem, our expectations are, sure we will be quite competitive with everyone back, but we still aren't that good

We have a pack of kids who will make mistakes, who will make the wrong call, who aren't physically able to match the best test teams up front.

We have kids who go for the highlight reel moment instead of the smart, simpler option (JOC (James O'Connor)'s dumb flick pass while running his support into the sideline, Beale's dumber kick etc etc). We have replacement options who are either younger or conservative in their approach as say Barnes who is continually complained about for taking the safer option too often and not smiling enough.

 

[RedsHappy]

....The coach isn't the problem, our expectations are, sure we will be quite competitive with everyone back, but we still aren't that good

We have a pack of kids who will make mistakes, who will make the wrong call, who aren't physically able to match the best test teams up front.

We have kids who go for the highlight reel moment instead of the smart, simpler option (JOC (James O'Connor)'s dumb flick pass while running his support into the sideline, Beale's dumber kick etc etc). We have replacement options who are either younger or conservative in their approach as say Barnes who is continually complained about for taking the safer option too often and not smiling enough....

Oh, really? So top line coaching has nothing to do with this and cannot contribute enduring solutions - or major improvements - to any of the above problems?

That will save a lot of ARU $s as we can drop Deans' (and others) costs, save a truckload in fact, and just hire say 2 part-time selectors to pick the team, yes we'll need a Captain and team doctor or two. Lean and mean.

The note you wrote above could just easily be applied - for example only - to the late 2009 Reds. In fact, it would be a near-perfect summary (with some names replaced as relevant). But, lo and behold, there was a total clean-out of the QRU in late 2009, Link came in, and, voila, by some mysterious process of growth, we have the 2010 Reds, just 2 points short of the top S14 final 4. Very few new Reds players were added in 2010 vs 2009. And there were certainly few proven superstars in that early 2010 Reds line up. Yet they were able to mix it with, and beat, many of the very best S14 teams.

Here I am NOT saying that player quality is somehow irrelevant and coaches are magicians. But I am saying that if you look around the game, the calibre, style and depth of knowledge of good rugby coaches is highly relevant to building teams that can win, even if the players are not all world class. So, I don't concur that the only issue we can rationally have with the Wallabies 2010 is that of 'expectations' as the team is a bunch of kid second-raters.

 

[RugbyReg]

The coach isn't the problem, our expectations are, sure we will be quite competitive with everyone back, but we still aren't that good

We have a pack of kids who will make mistakes, who will make the wrong call, who aren't physically able to match the best test teams up front.

We have kids who go for the highlight reel moment instead of the smart, simpler option (JOC (James O'Connor)'s dumb flick pass while running his support into the sideline, Beale's dumber kick etc etc). We have replacement options who are either younger or conservative in their approach as say Barnes who is continually complained about for taking the safer option too often and not smiling enough.

on the one hand you say the coach isn't the problem, but on the other hand you say the kids he is picking are making the wrong call and aren't physically able enough to match the best teams up front.

So, he's the problem. He's picking the wrong 'kids'. Pick the ones who know to go for the smart, simpler option rather than the highlight reel moment.

Pick AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at fullback or OC. Pick Hynes or Turner on the wing (or fullback). Pick Fainga'a. Pick Valentine. Pick Humphreys. Pick Waugh.

Don't give it to Robbie too quick. He's very much a part of the problem. Not the problem. But part of it.

 

[Scarfman]

None are the best in their position, including all the wounded,

Genia isn't as good as FDP,
Cooper is at least behind Carter & Steyne for a start.
Palu wouldn't be in the top 4 (Read, Spies, Parisse & Harinordoquy are all better units)
Elsom has been average as well

Agree, except for Palu. I think he is the equal of any of those units.

 

[daz]

The coach isn't the problem, our expectations are

Sitting in front of the telly expecting to win lotto and retire every Saturday night at 7:30pm is an unrealistic expectation.

Asking our national team to show improvement and leave it all out on the field is not.

Where does this expectation come from? Well, it comes from the ARU, who told us the day RD was hired that they expected silverware within 12 months.

It comes from RD and co telling us day in and day out that we are on track. It might not look like it, but trust us, it is. What do you supporters know about it anyway? Just stay out of our way, and keep sucking up our PR.

It comes from the media who tell us that this is the most exciting period in Oz rugby for the last 10 years.

It sure as fuck doesn't come from the results to date. For the first time, a change in coach has made it's way into the media (thanks, WS). I bet my hat those media stories will gain traction very rapidly should the "expected" results in the 3N go the way we think it will, i.e. badly.

 

[HG]

Just a few points regarding the above posts.
From last weekend’s team we would have no-one in a world 15.
Cooper may make the bench as he can cover a few positions.
However after next year’s super 15 and with the continued improvement of the younger players and some of our injured older players coming back we will have a far stronger side. We may still not have many in a starting world 15 but we will have a good few bench players or players at least close to equal to those players picked in a world 15.
Smokies to keep in mind are A Fainga'a and W Chambers I have chosen these 2 because the will have another season with Cooper and are strong ball runners (can break tackles) and far more instinctive than Horne (who is also injury prone) as well as been very solid defenders.
My prediction is that Giteau will not be starting for Australia in the World cup. It seems that he can’t come to terms with been second fiddle to Cooper and is struggling to know how and where to position himself off Cooper in attack, and he is still running sideways. The question is do we need another play maker at inside centre? I will leave AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at fullback (fantastic player and the best player in Australia under the high ball). Wings will be Digby (if he can stay injury free) another hard running player that can break the line. Mitchell is still a quality player and had a great super season, made a few mistakes last weekend but is still I believe the pick of the crop.
Half back will be Genia nothing more to say here.
Cliff Palu, It will be great to see him running into gaps created by Cooper. This position is where the wallabies have been suffering badly. We have had very little go forward at 8 all year.
Pocock and Elsom will be the 6 and 7, however Elsom will have to pick up his act or may lose his position as can go missing all too often.
The Locks will be Sharpe and Horwill the best available. We have been missing this paring all season.
The younger guys coming through look great but will need a couple more years yet.
Hooker TPN and a tossup with who will sit on the bench. Benn Robinson, Ben Alexander and bench will be Slipper and Daley and Weeks as the smokie.

 

[fatprop]

Agree, except for Palu. I think he is the equal of any of those units.

Scarfie

I actually think Read is a fantastic 8 and the best about, fantastic, effective workrate and a great athlete.

 

[RedsHappy]

Sitting in front of the telly expecting to win lotto and retire every Saturday night at 7:30pm is an unrealistic expectation.

Asking our national team to show improvement and leave it all out on the field is not.

Where does this expectation come from? Well, it comes from the ARU, who told us the day RD was hired that they expected silverware within 12 months.

It comes from RD and co telling us day in and day out that we are on track. It might not look like it, but trust us, it is. What do you supporters know about it anyway? Just stay out of our way, and keep sucking up our PR.

It comes from the media who tell us that this is the most exciting period in Oz rugby for the last 10 years.

It sure as fuck doesn't come from the results to date. For the first time, a change in coach has made it's way into the media (thanks, WS). I bet my hat those media stories will gain traction very rapidly should the "expected" results in the 3N go the way we think it will, i.e. badly.

Hey! Go for it mate, good to see the posting fingers back and dazzling ;-).

 

[daz]

Hey! Go for it mate, good to see the posting fingers back and dazzling ;-).

Thanks RH. I never went away, but I have been trying to figure out why I have been so angry and depressed over the last 2 weeks. The Pom loss kicked me in the guts hard, but the display against the Oirish really fucking hurt. And we won!

I always said I was a Deans fan and have supported him from day one. Maybe he really does have the secret Wallaby tonic we so desperately need. But if we drop the 3N and/or Bledisloe this year (and how can we not?) after 3 years of being told we are on track, my confidence in him will be shattered. It is rocking from side to side already....

 

[RedsHappy]

.... For the first time, a change in coach has made it's way into the media (thanks, WS). ....

Yes Daz, the mainline media have today taken the required reality pill and gently awoken to the fact that, well, just perhaps, coaching _might_ have something to do with the current Wallabies debacles. As we've said elsewhere here, the lag from passionate GAGR debate upon such issues and the mainline rugby media 'discovering' the issue and writing about them as though unique insights were now on offer, is about 3 months or so (and maybe more).

Here's the dam-breaking link:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...revive-wallabies/story-e6frg7mf-1225884938817

 

[fatprop]

on the one hand you say the coach isn't the problem, but on the other hand you say the kids he is picking are making the wrong call and aren't physically able enough to match the best teams up front.

So, he's the problem. He's picking the wrong 'kids'. Pick the ones who know to go for the smart, simpler option rather than the highlight reel moment.

Pick AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at fullback or OC. Pick Hynes or Turner on the wing (or fullback). Pick Fainga'a. Pick Valentine. Pick Humphreys. Pick Waugh.

Don't give it to Robbie too quick. He's very much a part of the problem. Not the problem. But part of it.

Maybe I just am pissed off but I look at the options we have and I don't really see a solution, our pigs are soft and I just don't see Humphreys as a counter to coming up against against Beker and Matfield or Waugh doing anything better than Pocock.

As for the backs, yeah well, less dwarfs, more men would be preferable to me but I don't see it changing the outcome greatly.

 

[Scotty]

I agree fatprop, but with the midget policy we know we aren't going to win, at least if we add some bigger, tougher units we might have a shot.

The question regarding winning a world cup and needing 5-6 World XV players to do so isn't really valid. There is always going to be 5-6 world XV players from a world cup winning side, who quite often wouldn't have been considered World XV players before the tournament. However they would have not been out of place in a world XV (even if they were just shaded by another player), or they would have had the potential to be World XV players.

The other question is how weak are your weakest few players? I think to win a world cup your weakest players need to be tier one international level. The current Wallaby team would have several that aren't tier one internationals, but the full strength team wouldn't have this issue.

As far as guys that wouldn't be out of place, or are potentially world XV players:

Robinson, Alexander, Moore, TPN, Pocock, Elsom, Palu, Genia, Cooper, Ioane, Ashley-Cooper

So the weakest areas of our full strength XV seem to be locks and centres. Out of these positions, Robbie has only tried one new player in Horne to try and fill this gap. We haven't seen any Douglas, Simmons, Chambers, Fa'ainga, To'omua to see what they can add.

 

[JJJ]

As we've said elsewhere here, the lag from passionate GAGR debate upon such issues and the mainline rugby media 'discovering' the issue and writing about them as though unique insights were now on offer, is about 3 months or so (and maybe more).

Probably because we're all willing to be immediately wrong (because our jobs don't depend on being right), whereas they're wrong only after long and careful consideration.

 

[DPK]

I agree fatprop, but with the midget policy we know we aren't going to win, at least if we add some bigger, tougher units we might have a shot.

Where are these mythical units? I don't see any in the Aus Super 14 teams squads that match the job description...