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Michael Cheika

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
Stade basically threw the Challenge cup game as they had a big game in the Top 14 the week after. The fact that they didn't make the top 6 for the play offs would have been the final straw.

Isn't there 2 ways French Clubs can qualify for the Heineken Cup........either finish in the top six within their Top 14 competition and /or win the Amlin Cup?
If a French team wins the Amlin Cup, I think 7 teams from France could qualify......if not someone please correct me here.
If that is the case, I can't see them throwing anything. They also played that match with desperation and only lost in the last few minutes.

That aside Cheika has plenty of options including taking a break from coaching. He's young enough to have some time off, has a young family and not desperate for the money.
He's also smart enough now to know that he needs 100% support from the owner/board of any interested club so he can 'do his stuff' without interference, and that will guide his thinking too.
Does anybody think he would trust today's NSW power brokers?[/quote]
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Isn't there 2 ways French Clubs can qualify for the Heineken Cup........either finish in the top six within their Top 14 competition and /or win the Amlin Cup?

The team that Stade picked for the semi final saw them rest most of their first choice for the Top 14 game against Racing the following weekend. Although it was a very entertaining semi final and Stade pushed Toulon all the way the team selected did not give them the best chance of reaching the finals. Picking Smith at 12 made it pretty obvious which competition was given priority.

If a French team wins the Amlin Cup, I think 7 teams from France could qualify......if not someone please correct me here.

Yes when a French team wins this years Amlin they will qualify for next years HEC and France will have an extra spot. However this will only benefit Stade if Toulon win in as Biaritz are outside the top 6.

Cheika gambled on making the Top 14 play offs and it back fired with him paying the ultimate price. Many teams in France, with a couple of exceptions, place success in the Top 14 ahead of success in the HEC or Amlin. It's changing slowly with a few teams taking Europe more seriously but Stade are still firmly in the Top 14 camp. While qualifying for next years HEC will be a nice boost for them, if Toulon win the Amlin, the object of finishing in the top 6 was more about competing for the Top 14 trophy.

I think it's safe to assume, given the previous problems, that members of Cheika's coaching and playing staff would have been in the presidents ear saying that missing out on the play offs wasn't good enough.

In the long run Stade's decision will benefit whoever is lucky enough to pick up Cheika, as long as they give him enough time and backing to bring in his own people and establish his methods.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Many teams in France, with a couple of exceptions, place success in the Top 14 ahead of success in the HEC or Amlin. It's changing slowly with a few teams taking Europe more seriously but Stade are still firmly in the Top 14 camp.

This is exactly right. Clermont is one of the exceptions mentioned, having won the Top14 for the first time in yonks a couple of years ago, and went looking for another windmill to tilt at, but by and large the Top 14 is the Holy Grail.
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sudrugby

Watty Friend (18)
This is exactly right. Clermont is one of the exceptions mentioned, having won the Top14 for the first time in yonks a couple of years ago, and went looking for another windmill to tilt at, but by and large the Top 14 is the Holy Grail.
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It is slowing changing... H Cup is now becoming really important, especially the play offs. Clermont and Toulouse and building teams to win both competitions.
But it is true that the Amlin Cup is not important, only to "save" a season like for Biarritz this year.
 

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
It is slowing changing... H Cup is now becoming really important, especially the play offs. Clermont and Toulouse and building teams to win both competitions.
But it is true that the Amlin Cup is not important, only to "save" a season like for Biarritz this year.

You've gone away from the original point being made guys.
The relevance of the Amlin Cup is that if Cheika's Stade Francais won that competition (which their semi-final conqueror's Toulon will end up doing), they would have then qualified for the 2013 Heineken Cup.......i.e. winning it gives you qualification.
Agreed it's not the French Top 14 BUT Heineken Cup matches bring huge revenue into the club and it is a bloody prestigious prize to be the Club Champions of Europe.
Remember, Cheika landed the Stade Francais job off the back of his winning the Heineken Cup with Leinster, not via the Top 14 system.
 

sudrugby

Watty Friend (18)
You've gone away from the original point being made guys.
The relevance of the Amlin Cup is that if Cheika's Stade Francais won that competition (which their semi-final conqueror's Toulon will end up doing), they would have then qualified for the 2013 Heineken Cup.......i.e. winning it gives you qualification.
Agreed it's not the French Top 14 BUT Heineken Cup matches bring huge revenue into the club and it is a bloody prestigious prize to be the Club Champions of Europe.
Remember, Cheika landed the Stade Francais job off the back of his winning the Heineken Cup with Leinster, not via the Top 14 system.

If Toulon wins the Challenge Cup, then the 7th of the Top 14 is qualified -> Stade Français playing the H Cup
If Biarritz wins, it will play the H Cup and Stade Français will play the Amlin
 
E

ellabroz

Guest
Was the case before the last two weeks. Have my sources ;)

Maybe so, or maybe not. These forums are full of bullshit sources. That's why we're on here rather than part of the paid media.

I personally don't believe Hill to be secure in his job just yet. Like last season, form and results can dramatically tail off in the second half of the season. I want the Rebels to succeed, but I'm not convinced of the entire coaching staff, not just Damien Hill.
 

Epi

Dave Cowper (27)
This I know.. Michael Cheika was royally screwed around by the Tah's prior to Hickey being hired... I highly doubt he would head back there with the current administration in charge. Apparently their behaviour during the whole process was amateur hour at best...

I'll tip the Force...
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
This I know.. Michael Cheika was royally screwed around by the Tah's prior to Hickey being hired... I highly doubt he would head back there with the current administration in charge. Apparently their behaviour during the whole process was amateur hour at best...

I'll tip the Force...

Amateur hour = offering low money with bonus for wins.
Tahs didn't have any money, that's why hickey got the job, they cut front office jobs and hired a cut price coach.

Has Cheika ever actually been quoted or spoken about coming back to aus,he has virtually been sounded out at least in the media fir every job that has come out in the last few years and I'm yet to see any actual evidence he is even directly interested in coming back.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Amateur hour = offering low money with bonus for wins.
Tahs didn't have any money, that's why hickey got the job, they cut front office jobs and hired a cut price coach.

Has Cheika ever actually been quoted or spoken about coming back to aus,he has virtually been sounded out at least in the media fir every job that has come out in the last few years and I'm yet to see any actual evidence he is even directly interested in coming back.

The other question is of course: is he truly a good enough coach in 2012 for 2013+ SH S15 conditions?

The vast majority of posters here seem to believe the answer is: automagically, yes he is (based on the HC), no doubt about that.

Why do we automatically conclude that based upon NH results? The players, conditions, styles of play, etc. are all very different to those in today's SH S15. If we look at the steeped-in-NH-conditions-for-long-periods Aus coaches we have recently brought back to Australia, e.g. Williams, Graham, Gaffney, the omens are not exactly highly positive are they?

Just think it's worth raising the question.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
If you can coach in the NH, you can coach in the SH.Jake White is not using the same style that he used with that other team.
It's more a man management role in any event these days.If the players buy into your vision you will be successful.
I don't think the guys you quoted who have come home have been in one team long enough to assess their performance
 

Epi

Dave Cowper (27)
Amateur hour = offering low money with bonus for wins.
Tahs didn't have any money, that's why hickey got the job, they cut front office jobs and hired a cut price coach.

No... they screwed him around like one of those would-be employers who can't make their mind up and string people along for months.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Why do we automatically conclude that based upon NH results? The players, conditions, styles of play, etc. are all very different to those in today's SH S15. If we look at the steeped-in-NH-conditions-for-long-periods Aus coaches we have recently brought back to Australia, e.g. Williams, Graham, Gaffney, the omens are not exactly highly positive are they?

The 3 guys you mentioned have very different NH coaching records to Cheika.

Williams was still serving his apprenticeship at Munster when he got the call to join Deans in the Aus national team set up. Personally I think it was too soon for him and he would have been better served staying put and continuing to learn. It's one thing to be a forwards coach of a dominant pack as Munster were, but he would have gotten so much more experience with them now when they are no longer dominant and are rebuilding. But I understand why he said yes to the Aus job as when your country comes calling you're almost always going to say yes as it might be the one and only time you are asked.

Graham didn't have a very impressive NH record with Bath and Saracens. Twice at Bath he was overlooked for the head coaches gig and only got it at Sarries because Eddie Jones left a year early. In the year that Graham was head coach Sarries finished 9th in a 12 team competition.

Gaffney has been in decline for years and it was obvious to anyone in the NH that he had lost his mojo. Whoever decided he would be good at the Tahs either never did any research on his performance in recent years or was a buddy of his from the old days.

There's no gaurantee that Cheika will walk into a S15 side and wave a magic wand and make them successful. But he has a much better recent NH record than any of those 3 guys. As LG mentioned his biggest mistake at Stade was not bringing in his own people sooner. I don't think he was ready for the level of politics in French club rugby and should have got his own people in key positions to support him asap. Still he improved Stade's fortunes and probably would have built on that next year if given the chance.

His teams played a better brand of rugby than has been served up by any of the Aus teams in this years S15. But as mentioned there are no gaurantees, but this is true of any coach taking over a new team even if they were already working in S15. It's a new set of players, coaches and backroom staff to deal with.

Do I think Cheika will be an automatic success in S15, no. Do I think he would be worth a punt for one of the Aus S15 sides, hell yes.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Bardon

Outstanding post; especially these bits.

The 3 guys you mentioned have very different NH coaching records to Cheika.

There's no gaurantee that Cheika will walk into a S15 side and wave a magic wand and make them successful. But he has a much better recent NH record than any of those 3 guys.

His teams played a better brand of rugby than has been served up by any of the Aus teams in this years S15. But as mentioned there are no gaurantees, but this is true of any coach taking over a new team even if they were already working in S15. It's a new set of players, coaches and backroom staff to deal with.

Do I think Cheika will be an automatic success in S15, no. Do I think he would be worth a punt for one of the Aus S15 sides, hell yes.

Yeah - having a good record in the NH is no guarantee of success in the SH.

For example: I have been disappointed with the performance of the Tahs backs who are coached by Gaffney. Even though there were mumblings before he came home that he hadn't done enough with the top talent the Ireland national team had, I hoped that he would rejuvenate the Tahs' backs. I posted a few times that he did a decent enough job with them in the Super12 days and was just who they needed now, but instead they are the same as they have been for a while.

All I wanted was the old Randwick style of play, but it didn't happen in 2012 unless it was by exception.

Maybe another Randwick man, though a no.8, could make a difference. No, maybe better if Cheika stays out of Sydney. There is a whiff of SF at the Tahs.
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Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
I have been disappointed with the performance of the Tahs backs who are coached by Gaffney. Even though there were mumblings before he came home that he hadn't done enough with the top talent the Ireland national team had, I hoped that he would rejuvenate the Tahs' backs. I posted a few times that he did a decent enough job with them in the Super12 days and was just who they needed now, but instead they are the same as they have been for a while.

I don't blame Gaffney, I blame LG for misleading us.
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Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
I've presided over one punch-up between you two pensioners and I don't look forward to doing it again, could you both please behave yourselves.

"Presided" over it? You orchestrated it, Lindommer. And then it turns out what you told me about LG wasn't true anyway. He didn't use his Rugby Press Pass to get into the Sexpo for free. He lined up and paid like everyone else.
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