New Blood

[Scarfman]

Was browsing Wallaby history at www.rugby.com.au and became interested in the number of new test players per year.

Here's some recent history:

2000 9
2001 6
2002 9
2003 5
2004 6
2005 14
2006 8
2007 5
2008 8

So, 8 new players in a year is pretty average. It does show how conservative Connolly was, though. What was going on in 2005?

 

[Spook]

Injuries galore in 2005. Last year of Jones as well.

 

[Lindommer]

Note 2003 and 07 were World Cup years, never going to be a lot of newbies.

 

[Grandmaster Flash]

Can we name the debutants in 2005?

Drew Mitchell, Greg Holmes, Stephen Moore?

 

[RugbyReg]

Can we name the debutants in 2005?

Drew Mitchell, Greg Holmes, Stephen Moore?

Rocky Elsom, Stephen Moore, Hugh McMeniman v Samoa

Mark Gerrard v Italy

Al Campbell v France

Drew Mitchell v South Africa

Adam Ashley-Cooper v South Africa

Al Kanaar, Lloyd Johansson, Lachie Mackay v New Zealand

Greg Holmes v France

Tatafu Polata Nau, Scott Fava v England

David Fiteer v Ireland

Interestingly there were 8 players who that year played their last test: Flatley, Kanaar, Mackay, Henjak, Sailor, Roe, Fitter and Whitaker.

 

[Scotty]

Good point Lindommer. So Connolly wasn't really that conservative, and Deans isn't really that adventurous. In fact you could argue that the number of new players the year after a world cup should be naturally a lot greater, due to retirements. We could further argue that in addition to the likes of Larkham, Gregan and Latham, the mid season moves of Elsom and Vickerman have ensured that we would have at least 5 new squad members, even if they didn't all get on for a test.

 

[formeropenside]

Yeah, I believe that the Deans year has been bang on average for the Wallabies, and this reinforces that: yes, perceptions change, but they always would with a new no 9 and 10, not to mention suddenly a new 15 after the Latham sacking debacle.

 

[TOCC]

those stats dont represent everything though, yes there have only being 8 players blooded, but its how they have being used. In previous years when players were blooded they got a few minutes off the bench, or started in a match against a side like Samoa.

But this year Deans has capped these players and kept them in the side, Hynes, Burgess, Mumm, Brown, and Cross have all being used extensively this year, and then on top of that Deans has also used players like Horwill and Robinson quite a lot as well even though they were already capped.

 

[Scotty]

TOCC,

You could argue that Hynes was the only one of those that most other coaches wouldn't have selected. And this is offset by a possible over use of (according to some, including me) of Cross. The rest of the guys have either put their hands up in the S14 or there hasn't been many other options.

 

[Lindommer]

In addition to Deans' 8 freshmen we should add Horwill and Ioane, both of whom had played only one test prior to 2008. To say Deans has used 10 new players puts this year into a proper perspective.

 

[RugbyReg]

and Peter Kimlin won't be capped, but gets to tour.

 

[Ash]

In addition to Deans' 8 freshmen we should add Horwill and Ioane, both of whom had played only one test prior to 2008. To say Deans has used 10 new players puts this year into a proper perspective.

Indeed. Just as what Deans has done with some of the players - the transformation of Sharpe, Moore and Horwill emerging as a great test players (although you could argue that was inevitable based on their S14 form), plus the emergence of Brown, Hynes, Ioane, Robinson, Alexander, Cooper, Burgess as credible prospects for the future 5 - 10+ years. I'd say that Deans has had a lot of involvement in their development.

You look at where we were before due to the player losses last year and this year - no established halfback, no fullback after Latham, questionable wings, weak locks if Vickerman was out, no blindside alternative if Elsom was out, no number 8 alternative from Palu, no established 12 with Gits at 10, underperforming props. This year we have gone a long way to solving some of those depth issues - which is important seeing as we had no depth to speak of in most key positions.

I just think we were in more trouble this year than some people realise - we were still in a slow decline that started perhaps around 2001. I hope we might start on an upward trend from this year.

 

[Lee Grant]

I just think we were in more trouble this year than some people realise - we were still in a slow decline that started perhaps around 2001.

I hope we might start on an upward trend from this year.

Ash,

Two good sentences there. You are certainly correct about the 1st and hopefully you are correct about the 2nd.

Our Wallabies didn't get great press in Europe compared to the Blacks and Boks even though they didn't play that well, but I thought that we didn't deserve too many accolades.

As ordinarily as they played in some parts of all games, including in Hong Kong, the Blacks have a gear shift that we don't have, but will have to get if your upward trend is to happen. Euro fans and journos realise this and it's why the Kiwis are feared.

Similarly the Boks were woeful in the 2nd half against Wales and should have lost against Scotland, but we don't have the savage weight of contact in the physical contest nor the frantic ball imperative when they see a chance to get it, that they showed at Twickenham. That is the fear they engender.

That us another attribute we will have to acquire - or we should skew our selections in that direction.

We are too nice. We are not feared.

 

[Scotty]

Indeed. Just as what Deans has done with some of the players - the transformation of Sharpe, Moore and Horwill emerging as a great test players (although you could argue that was inevitable based on their S14 form), plus the emergence of Brown, Hynes, Ioane, Robinson, Alexander, Cooper, Burgess as credible prospects for the future 5 - 10+ years. I'd say that Deans has had a lot of involvement in their development.

You look at where we were before due to the player losses last year and this year - no established halfback, no fullback after Latham, questionable wings, weak locks if Vickerman was out, no blindside alternative if Elsom was out, no number 8 alternative from Palu, no established 12 with Gits at 10, underperforming props. This year we have gone a long way to solving some of those depth issues - which is important seeing as we had no depth to speak of in most key positions.

Putting all the credit towards Deans for these player developments is a bit misguided, although he has obviously done some very good things.

Horwill was made captain of the Reds by Mooney and has never looked back.
Barnes was picked by Connolly in the RWC squad, and has continued to improve under Mooney who moved him to 12 during the season.
Moore was already our best 2, and I'm not sure that he has improved out of sight - I think people are just starting to notice him more (especially when they compare him to our alternatives).
Mumm was given his shot by McKenzie, and took it with two hands.
MMM was always going to be picked for the Wallabies if he could stay fit.
Burgess also put his hand up in S14 - and there weren't really many other options.

I could go on. He has done some good things eg (dropping Sharpe & Tuqiri, picking Hynes & Ioane), however we have also seen:

Cross have a mortgage on the 13 jumper.
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) have a mortgage on the 15 jumper (which has clearly been proven wrong).

 

[Spook]

I think Deans has got good performances from a number of average international players. That's quite a good achievement. I think Deans and Co conditioned the Wallabies extremely well before the AIs. Better than I've seen for a long time. We need to keep working on the fitness aspect and S14 coaches need to buy into this.

 

[Cutter]

Scarfman I think your stats are out. This year:

Cross, Hynes, Tahu, Brown, Cooper, O'Connor, Pocock, Burgess, Mumm, Kepu, Alexander and Turner.

That is 12. 13 if you count Kimlin who will play for the Wallabies but not in a test. If you also include Ioane and Horwill, its 15. The bolded ones are 22 man squad players every time.

How many players will play their last test this year?

 

[TOCC]

good point cutter, i thought more then 8 players had being blooded...

the statistic must have being made prior to the Northern Hemisphere tour.

 

[barbarian]

Maybe Scarf's stats only include guys that were in the run-on side?

Of your list Cutter the benchies were Cooper, O'Conner, Pocock and Kepu- take them away and you have 8 left.

 

[disco]

As ordinarily as they played in some parts of all games, including in Hong Kong, the Blacks have a gear shift that we don't have, but will have to get if your upward trend is to happen.

The Ab's gearshift was just having a bench, in Bris & Hong Kong we didn't.

We did have a bench to go to in Europe & it paid off especially at twickers when Palu & Mumm come on & really turned the tide of that match.

 

[Scarfman]

Scarfman I think your stats are out. This year:

Cross, Hynes, Tahu, Brown, Cooper, O'Connor, Pocock, Burgess, Mumm, Kepu, Alexander and Turner.

That is 12. 13 if you count Kimlin who will play for the Wallabies but not in a test. If you also include Ioane and Horwill, its 15. The bolded ones are 22 man squad players every time.

How many players will play their last test this year?

True. Not counted: Cooper, O'Connor, Pocock, and Kepu.