New South Wales v Queensland: 130th Anniversary

[Swat]

Either way, anyone think the Tahs should maybe to a throwback do the southern cross on the uniform? I like the look of it and it would mean that anyone with a southern cross tattoo is effectively advertising their love of the Tahs. Would be hilarious if we could make it synonymous with NSW rugby, I immagine there's quite a few queenslanders with said ink work.

 

[kiap]

Either way, anyone think the Tahs should maybe to a throwback to the southern cross on the uniform? I like the look of it and it would mean that anyone with a southern cross tattoo is effectively advertising their love off the Tahs. Would be hilarious if we could make it synonymous with NSW rugby, I immagine there's quite a few queenslanders with said ink work.

The Rebels are 5-starred though now. Tahs only 4-stars?

 

[Swat]

The Rebels are 5-starred though now. Tahs only 4-stars?

They stole our star! (kurtley)

 

[Swat]

Also, is the scarf or neckerchief or whatever it is supposed to be indicative of the captain?

 

[kiap]

Also, is the scarf or neckerchief or whatever it is supposed to be indicative of the captain?

Good spot, I didn't notice those before. Dunno, but I reckon they'd be a target for getting scragged. Would the captains be the ones holding the, ah,.. balls?

 

[Swat]

Good spot, I didn't notice those before. Dunno, but I reckon they'd be a target for getting scragged. Would the captains be the ones holding the, ah,.. balls?

Also, no substitutes. Hardcore!

Plus doesn't tradition dictate that the Hooker holds your balls

 

[kiap]

Ah, yes! What goes on tour stays on tour.

The Qld 'captain' looks about 15 y.o. though.

 

[Swat]

The Qld 'captain' looks about 15 y.o. though.

Child prodigy?

 

[kiap]

Maybe a young-star... I don't know about Qld but I have a list of the early NSW captains. Must be one of these:

CW Graham
CL Tange
LEF Neill (Sydney University Rugby Club)
JAK Shaw (Sydney University Rugby Club)
JA Wood

NSW v Qld Inter-Colonial Matches
 
Date           Venue                     Captain      Result
---------------------------------------------------------------
12-Aug-1882    Association Ground (SCG)  JA Brodie   W 26-4
22-Aug-1882    Association Ground (SCG)  JA Brodie   W 18-0
15-Aug-1883    Eagle Farm Racecourse     JA Brodie   L 11-12
23-Aug-1883    Eagle Farm Racecourse     JA Brodie   W 13-0
12-Jul-1884    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 17-4
19-Jul-1884    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 26-0
19-Aug-1885    Albert Sports Ground      GW Graham   L 0-14
29-Aug-1885    Albert Sports Ground      GW Graham   W 12-2
24-Jul-1886    Association Ground (SCG)  PS Chapman  L 2-4
31-Jul-1886    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 26-5
19-Aug-1887    Albert Sports Ground      CL Tange    L 8-9
27-Aug-1887    Albert Sports Ground      LEF Neill   W 4-0
14-Jul-1888    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 15-13
21-Jul-1888    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 9-2
21-Aug-1889    Albert Sports Ground      JAK Shaw    W 19-12
31-Aug-1889    Albert Sports Ground      JAK Shaw    W 13-10
19-Jul-1890    Association Ground (SCG)  LEF Neill   W 15-3
26-Jul-1890    Association Ground (SCG)  LEF Neill   D 0-0
15-Aug-1891    Exhibition Ground         JA Wood     D 9-9
22-Aug-1891    Exhibition Ground         JA Wood     L 0-11

 

[Lee Grant]

So those photos I posted at the top are unlikely to be actually from the 1883 match. It was 3 months before the NRU existed. The photos must be from 1885, 7, 9, or 1891. The NRU was renamed as the QRU in 1893.

kiap

The NSW photo you posted is of the 1882 team, taken, no doubt, before the 1st colonial match at the now-called SCG. It's identified in a Waratahs' magazine. Strangely, the ARU lists it as the 1883 team photo, but the photo of the NSW 1883 team (which I am looking at in a book) was taken in a different location, no doubt at Eagle Farm before that game.

The Qld photo you posted is definitely not of their 1882 team: firstly, a photo of the Qld 1882 team (at the same location) in a second book, indicates otherwise (and they were wearing dark pants) - and as you indicate: with NRU on their jerseys it would have to be a 1884 team or a later one - though still one that played at the SCG.

The gentleman with the ball in the Qld photo is Irishman A.J. Hickson who was captain/coach, but that is not a definite clue because he was captain for 6 years including when Queensland played in Sydney in 1882, 1884 and 1886. So it has to be the photo of either the 1884 or 1886 team shot at the same SCG location.
.

 

[kiap]

Thanks Lee, great stuff. A.J. Hickson - nice one.

Agree that the Qld one must be 1884 or later, but I'm not so sure about the NSW one being 1882.

I reckon both photos are taken at the same venue (judging by the grandstand posts). Not sure whether the venue is Sydney or Brisbane but I do think they were taken at the same match. Look at the guy with the white bowler hat and white jacket. He appears in both photographs!

The source I came across for both these photos was State Library of Queensland website which lists both as "ca. 1883" and location "Brisbane". Doesn't mean those attributions are right though. The Qld one has to be later than 1883.


QLD Photo source: http://bishop.slq.qld.gov.au/view/a...ULE_ID=10&frameId=1&usePid1=true&usePid2=true

NSW_photo_source

 

[Lee Grant]

You could be right kiap.

The Tahs put out an article in their 2012 Season Guide about the about the first match v. Queensland in 1882 and put that photo in the article and over the page they had a photo of the 1882 NSW team that toured NZ. I took it that they had thereby identified the first one as the 1882 photo of NSW before the big match, and had two 1882 photos in the article.

But that guy in white the jacket and bowler hat in the photo is a bit of a give away isn't he, and since I know it can't be the 1882 Qld team, since the photo of that team is in T.V. Hickie's book, (shot in the same location) then you have to be right. If it wasn't the 1882 Qld team then it couldn't be the 1882 NSW team either.

It's unlikely that he wore the same outfit two years apart.

Well spotted kiap.

PS - As mentioned there is a photo of both the NSW and Qld teams of 1883 in a different location, almost certainly in the host city of Brisbane. Since your photos are not in that different 1883 location but in the same position as Hickie's 1882 photo of Qld there is a high probability, though not certainty, that they were shot in Sydney.

 

[kiap]

Cheers Lee, ok so it's in the period 1884-1887 (with AJ Hickson captain from 1882-1887 and NRU jerseys only being 1884 or after). Probably in Sydney. It looks like both pics are from the same match too with the identical camera position if you overlay the photos (the columns, seats and even the fence palings line up).

 

[p.Tah]

Kiap, as if a 130 year old black and white photo wasn't spooky enough...

If you stare at this and go cross eyed it actually becomes 3D. Nice.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Maybe a young-star... I don't know about Qld but I have a list of the early NSW captains. Must be one of these:

CW Graham
CL Tange
LEF Neill (Sydney University Rugby Club)
JAK Shaw (Sydney University Rugby Club)
JA Wood

NSW v Qld Inter-Colonial Matches
 
Date          Venue                    Captain      Result
---------------------------------------------------------------
12-Aug-1882    Association Ground (SCG)  JA Brodie  W 26-4
22-Aug-1882    Association Ground (SCG)  JA Brodie  W 18-0
15-Aug-1883    Eagle Farm Racecourse    JA Brodie  L 11-12
23-Aug-1883    Eagle Farm Racecourse    JA Brodie  W 13-0
12-Jul-1884    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 17-4
19-Jul-1884    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 26-0
19-Aug-1885    Albert Sports Ground      GW Graham  L 0-14
29-Aug-1885    Albert Sports Ground      GW Graham  W 12-2
24-Jul-1886    Association Ground (SCG)  PS Chapman  L 2-4
31-Jul-1886    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 26-5
19-Aug-1887    Albert Sports Ground      CL Tange    L 8-9
27-Aug-1887    Albert Sports Ground      LEF Neill  W 4-0
14-Jul-1888    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 15-13
21-Jul-1888    Association Ground (SCG)  CL Tange    W 9-2
21-Aug-1889    Albert Sports Ground      JAK Shaw    W 19-12
31-Aug-1889    Albert Sports Ground      JAK Shaw    W 13-10
19-Jul-1890    Association Ground (SCG)  LEF Neill  W 15-3
26-Jul-1890    Association Ground (SCG)  LEF Neill  D 0-0
15-Aug-1891    Exhibition Ground        JA Wood    D 9-9
22-Aug-1891    Exhibition Ground        JA Wood    L 0-11

According to Thomas Hickie's book, A Sense of Union: A History of the Sydney University Football Club, both JA Brodie and CL Tange were also from the Sydney University Club.

 

[Lee Grant]

I was referring to Hickie's "They Ran With The Ball - How Rugby Football Began In Australia" - Longman Cheshire.

It's a good yawn.

 

[kiap]

According to Thomas Hickie's book, A Sense of Union: A History of the Sydney University Football Club, both JA Brodie and CL Tange were also from the Sydney University Club.

Thank you, I didn't have more info on those chaps. Does the book have any photos of them, Bruce? If the NSW captain can be identified then it may nail down the exact year of the team photos.

Only photo I gleaned was of L.E.F. Neill. It might be him but not totally convinced it's a match, although the jaw and ear (maybe the mouth) seem quite similar.

 

[Bruce Ross]

I was referring to Hickie's "They Ran With The Ball - How Rugby Football Began In Australia" - Longman Cheshire.

It's a good yawn.

Neat pun. I think it derived from his Ph D thesis, LG. That's the kiss of death for any book.

 

[James Buchanan]

I hope its not too disrespectful to ask if you have any player notes from those games Lee?

 

[Braveheart81]

I hope its not too disrespectful to ask if you have any player notes from those games Lee?

There are definitely a couple of young upstarts who should really hit their straps in the early '90s (1890s).