New Zealand v Australia - Auckland - 23 August 2014

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Fixed.

When you have kiwis - full-on, passionate, staunch All Black fans - starting to concede that someone is a better 7 than McCaw, that is saying something. It's not a criticism of Hooper I just don't think we see him as much of a threat as what Pocock was. Prehaps that's not how it should be but I think that's how it is.

And as everyone has pointed out, Pocock is not playing and may never be again - which would be a huge huge shame.

If he were fit and ready, I would definitely start Pocock. At 6 and Hooper at 7. That would be a fucking nightmare for any Test team to come up against.

An intriguing proposition, but I wonder if Pocock would be big enough to play a traditional blindside role? I see in that position the need for real hurt on defence, cleanout at ruck time, a third line out option and ball running capability. I have this nagging feeling that we'd be giving up a little too much to have both of them on the paddock at the same time.

 

[ACT Crusader]

An intriguing proposition, but I wonder if Pocock would be big enough to play a traditional blindside role? I see in that position the need for real hurt on defence, cleanout at ruck time, a third line out option and ball running capability. I have this nagging feeling that we'd be giving up a little too much to have both of them on the paddock at the same time.

I remember when we ran with Holah and McCaw together. It didn't really work well albeit on limited occasions. More recently we went with McCaw and Adam Thomson (who was basically a tall 7) and I didn't think that worked crash hot either even Thomo had a huge Super campaign that hear winning a hell of a lot of turnovers at the breakdown. The only saving grace IMO was that Thomo was a very good LO player.

I never thought George and Waugh was overly successful when faced with bigger packs. George did have to work on his LO skills and ended up developing into a decent jumper at 8. But it was a big trade off to not have a player that takes the ball consistently into the tackle like its second nature. That was neither George or Waugh.

Just like trying to play 2 blindside types doesn't really work either, there is still a great need to play players that complement each other from numbers 4-8

 

[Pfitzy]

And this is the thing - we've discussed at length the ridicule Deans (and now Link) opened himself up to by trying to cram the best 7 players in the backline, out of position.

Can we stop doing it with forwards now? Balance, people!

 

[qwerty51]

Specifically in regards to Hooper, I think he is building into a fantastic test player. His game hasn't completely developed, hell who's has after one and a bit seasons of the big stage. On the evidence before us, he's been the most effective forward but games aren't won off the shoulders of one player no matter how talented they are.

Hooper played every Test in 2012-13. This is his 3rd year.

 

[Bullrush]

For me, they are quite different players. Different enough to play both together. Out of interest, I was just watching some of their highlight clips on youtube and it's pretty interesting - many of Hoopers highlights are line-breaks and his running, Pocock is mostly breakdowns and pilfers. If Pocock was good to go, would you really take Fardy over him? I wouldn't.....I'd give it a crack anyway and not die wondering!!

 

[ACT Crusader]

Hooper played every Test in 2012-13. This is his 3rd year.

True but be didn't start every test in 2012 and usually came on playing out of position.

He was thrust into the starting 7 jersey probably without serving an adequate apprenticeship behind the captain. But it is what it is and now in a weird twist he's the captain, probably when he is still developing (Horwill probably got the armband too early also, but that's another discussion).

If you look back at those 2012 tests he struggled against the Boks, ABs, France and even Italy. But it was really 2013 where he started to make people stand up and notice him. He had a hell of a 2013 Super season and then boom he was on fire vs in those first two Lions tests IMO.

He's still building.

 

[Pfitzy]

Hey fuckers. While we're on the topic of losing to Kiwis, go have a read put together by @#1Tah about how the best way to fix this whole mess long-term i.e. supporting the NRC. This is some good stuff:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...ics-of-the-national-rugby-championship.14725/

The most poignant bit for me, as someone who lived through the golden era:

I was born the same year as Super Rugby, in 1996.
...
I don't know what it's like to win a Bledisloe cup, and I don't know what it's like to win a World Cup. The last time the Wallabies won at Eden park was five years before my parents had met.

"Boo hoo, you are whining about the Wallabies losing" I hear you say. And you're right. But this isn't just me. This is the entire generation coming through high school. The kids playing Schoolboy rugby all have the same experience as I do - the next generation coming through to play for the Wallabies don't believe that it's possible for the Wallabies to match and compete with the All Blacks consistently, because we have never seen it done. These kids are going to play for the Wallabies and start the game already beaten because they don't believe they can do it.

This is just part of a very fucking awesome spiel on getting the NRC going. And we should all be part of that.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I remember when we ran with Holah and McCaw together. It didn't really work well albeit on limited occasions. More recently we went with McCaw and Adam Thomson (who was basically a tall 7) and I didn't think that worked crash hot either even Thomo had a huge Super campaign that hear winning a hell of a lot of turnovers at the breakdown. The only saving grace IMO was that Thomo was a very good LO player.

I never thought George and Waugh was overly successful when faced with bigger packs. George did have to work on his LO skills and ended up developing into a decent jumper at 8. But it was a big trade off to not have a player that takes the ball consistently into the tackle like its second nature. That was neither George or Waugh.

Just like trying to play 2 blindside types doesn't really work either, there is still a great need to play players that complement each other from numbers 4-8

Agreed. The back row, like most teams within teams on a rugby paddock, is all about balance. I think you need a combination of a fetcher, an enforcer and a block busting ball runner in the 6-8 positions and having two of the same type of players rarely works. France have often selected two flyers on the side of the scrum and a monster at eight (maybe even now), but as with most things French they are the exception.

 

[Quick Hands]

Of all the things I didn't think we'd be discussing 3 days later I'd say hooper's raison d'être would have been #1.
And I'm not even a huge fan.

Could someone wake me when it's over?

 

[Bardon]

IF you guys don't want Hooper send him up this way. Would be a double win for me. We'd get a fantastic player and finally a 7s team on the circuit to help his transition.

Seriously though having depth in a position isn't a bad thing and bagging on the guy who's showing the rest of your piggies the way forward is just ridiculous.

Your pack will be in a much better place when the argument is about why X player should start and what he offers (as with Hooper and Pocock) rather than why X, Y, Z players shouldn't start (as with most of the other low numbers).

 

[Tip]

Kepu and Palu had the worst games I have ever seen them play. Simmons and Carter could at least maintain the line in defence. Kepu & Palu were playing as defensive shooters all night even when they weren't marking anyone.

 

[qwerty51]

True but be didn't start every test in 2012 and usually came on playing out of position.

He was thrust into the starting 7 jersey probably without serving an adequate apprenticeship behind the captain. But it is what it is and now in a weird twist he's the captain, probably when he is still developing (Horwill probably got the armband too early also, but that's another discussion).

If you look back at those 2012 tests he struggled against the Boks, ABs, France and even Italy. But it was really 2013 where he started to make people stand up and notice him. He had a hell of a 2013 Super season and then boom he was on fire vs in those first two Lions tests IMO.

He's still building.

Well he was only off the bench for the 1st 4 and then started every Test after that apart from the 3rd Lions Test. And I disagree it was 2013 that made people stand up and take notice.. He got MoM at Twickenham in 2012.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Well he was only off the bench for the 1st 4 and then started every Test after that apart from the 3rd Lions Test. And I disagree it was 2013 that made people stand up and take notice.. He got MoM at Twickenham in 2012.

He didn't really stand out to me. I actually thought it was the whole pack that manned up in that win. The scrum was much impressed after being dealt to vs France and then a staunch defensive effort from Hooper, Dennis, Palu and then a big game from Badger providing go forward.

 

[JRoss]

A little tongue in cheek from across the ditch....

The All Blacks are a team in crisis, and their aura of invincibility is fading faster than memories of the last time Richie McCaw played a good game.

That is the only conclusion to be drawn from the home side's egregious inability to beat the Wallabies by more than 35 points at Eden Park.

Richie McCaw is a spent force. I have no tactical analysis with which to back up this contention, but apparently he missed a tackle earlier this year or something, so it's true.

McCaw is the floundering captain of a sinking ship weighed down by busted flushes and has beens who never were. Everywhere you look, there are gaping cracks in this All Black team.

Ryan Crotty's beard is more Ponsonby Road than Eden Park; Ben Smith has a boring name; and as for Brodie Retallick - well, I can't find a single criticism of his game so let's just insert some generic comment about how he'll probably be injured or burnt out by the next world cup.

Speaking of which, the All Blacks may as well not even bother getting on the plane, such will be the quality of opposition on show in the UK.

The Springboks are fresh from two dazzling victories over Argentina; England will be chuckling away having deliberately lost their three-Test series here in an ingenious bid to lull the All Blacks into a false sense of security; something the French also did across the ditch.

Which brings us to the Wallabies, who, like some magical canary yellow soufflé, are a team on the rise yet again for the eighth year in a row.

Michael Hoopah is ten times the player David Pocock was. And we all know from Greg Martin's deeply-insightful commentary before the 2011 semi-final that Pocock is ten times the player Richie McCaw is. Which makes Hoopah somewhere in the region of 100 times better than McCaw. That's a scary but unavoidable fact.

It seems wholly inevitable that at some stage in the next 20 years the Wallabies will regain the Bledisloe; such is the rate of decline in this spluttering All Blacks machine. Their 19-match unbeaten streak also seems sure to come crashing to a halt at some point within the next thirty or so Tests.

 

[KOB1987]

A little tongue in cheek from across the ditch..

Therein lies the turning point for the All Blacks!

 

[Scrubber2050]

pricks

 

[Scrubber2050]

double pricks

 

[Pfitzy]

Well yeah, but its all they've got since their little catamoron got mown down by the Aussie skippering the Swiss boat.

One race away from winning and then they lost how many consecutively?

Extraordinary!

CHOKEstraordinary you might say...

 

[DannyC]

Swiss Boat?

 

[Pfitzy]

Sorry was thinking of the previous one. Yank boat.