Northern Tours 2021 - NZ, SA, etc

[Bandar]

I actually quite happy that WR (World Rugby) is actually pretty competitive.

Not just at the top level too. It’s great to see Uruguay lost by 7 to Italy, Fiji had a draw with Georgia, Romania pushed Argentina earlier this year and plenty more close results. It’s great to see.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Even after time to reflect,I can't help but just think how much I emjoyed the test. France were bloody good, and I not going to cut my wrists because we lost to such a good team. I like a win,and know ABs have plenty to work on (well heaps really), but bugger me I hearing moans we lost 3 tests in a year!!!
SA who I think are going bloody well lost 5 (1 a Lions test so), England lost 3, etc etc, so I actually quite happy that WR (World Rugby) is actually pretty competitive.

Results-wise that's our worst year since 2009 when we lost four (France & SA x3) & the first time since 2000 we've lost to three different opponents (Australia, SA, France) in one year.

Like you I can accept defeat when the team's done everything they could to win but man there was some awful stuff on show this morning & last week. As Jeffrey & others have noted, we're still running with the 2010's game plan & it's not been good enough v England, Australia, Argentina, SA, Ireland & now France in the last 23 matches played (plus the draw v Australia), that's sub-70% for a team that historically wins 80% of the time. Something needs to change.

 

[cyclopath]

Results-wise that's our worst year since 2009 when we lost four (France & SA x3) & the first time since 2000 we've lost to three different opponents (Australia, SA, France) in one year.

Like you I can accept defeat when the team's done everything they could to win but man there was some awful stuff on show this morning & last week. As Jeffrey & others have noted, we're still running with the 2010's game plan & it's not been good enough v England, Australia, Argentina, SA, Ireland & now France in the last 23 matches played (plus the draw v Australia), that's sub-70% for a team that historically wins 80% of the time. Something needs to change.

Look, we're no Ireland...

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Not just at the top level too. It’s great to see Uruguay lost by 7 to Italy, Fiji had a draw with Georgia, Romania pushed Argentina earlier this year and plenty more close results. It’s great to see.

You can see why world rugby keeps pushing the world league concept and how it would help the game. Pity unlikely to happen

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Northern hemisphere 3 southern

Even after time to reflect,I can't help but just think how much I emjoyed the test. France were bloody good, and I not going to cut my wrists because we lost to such a good team. I like a win,and know ABs have plenty to work on (well heaps really), but bugger me I hearing moans we lost 3 tests in a year!!!
SA who I think are going bloody well lost 5 (1 a Lions test so), England lost 3, etc etc, so I actually quite happy that WR (World Rugby) is actually pretty competitive.

yeh and France were really rubbish leading up to this game but really seem to rise to the occasion when playing the ABs. I agree it is good to see northern hemisphere sides challenging top Southern Hemisphere sides. Irish and French were both very good so credit where due. The positives for all blacks was defence against Ireland and stronger second half against the French. Does feel gaps between southern and northern hemisphere narrowed a little.

 

[Drew]

^ as you probably know the whole "home team changes strip" thing dates back to amateurism, long tours & hauling around multiple sets of bulky, expensive kit. These days it's not an issue, except maybe for the really cash-strapped minnows, so it's kinda cool to see AB in white every now & then. But don't get me started on e.g. Ringinland in cerise v a team that traditionally plays in red, or Ireland in some kinda purple, Wales in black, etc, etc.

Obviously the alternate for alternates sake jerseys are merely a cash grab to get fans to buy variations of the same teams shirt. Most teams are held back by tradition. Like how many white England or All Black shirts is a fan willing to own? Probably more England ones if you’re a slob I guess. The French have always seemed to tinker with their jersey. You wonder if they were ahead of the curve in getting fans to buy new shirts or just tinkering

 

[Drew]

Northern hemisphere 3 southern

yeh and France were really rubbish leading up to this game but really seem to rise to the occasion when playing the ABs. I agree it is good to see northern hemisphere sides challenging top Southern Hemisphere sides. Irish and French were both very good so credit where due. The positives for all blacks was defence against Ireland and stronger second half against the French. Does feel gaps between southern and northern hemisphere narrowed a little.

All Blacks seem to be slipping into wallabies mode a little where a few players are weapons, everyone else is there to get them the ball. When the opposition figures out who does what and apply pressure cohesion is lost. You’re a bigger threat when 1-15 are all threats, rather than 8, 10, 13-15. If that’s coaching, or continuity in selection, it seems a trait that’s gone missing the last few games.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Obviously the alternate for alternates sake jerseys are merely a cash grab to get fans to buy variations of the same teams shirt. Most teams are held back by tradition. Like how many white England or All Black shirts is a fan willing to own? Probably more England ones if you’re a slob I guess. The French have always seemed to tinker with their jersey. You wonder if they were ahead of the curve in getting fans to buy new shirts or just tinkering

I've only ever seen France in red, white or blue going back to the 1950's (The Brave Fight of the French XV, a rugby classic) so not so much ahead of the marketing curve as maintaining a tradition?

 

[Drew]

I stand corrected. They just varied those colours with a stripe here, lines there. I’m only going back to Jean Pierre Rive adidas days, but for those days they changed quite a bit. Especially consIdering every other national team bar the wallabies wore a plain jersey with a badge. I always liked that. But they did cross the line when the went away from their traditional blue to a darker one so there’d be a definite clash with the ABs.
And is that Brave Fight… a movie?

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

IIRC the "black" jersey was a fade or every shade of blue they've ever worn & only the shoulders were at the black end of the blue spectrum. Plus of course the French just like to mess with our Anglais heads wherever & whenever possible

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

I stand corrected. They just varied those colours with a stripe here, lines there. I’m only going back to Jean Pierre Rive adidas days, but for those days they changed quite a bit. Especially consIdering every other national team bar the wallabies wore a plain jersey with a badge. I always liked that. But they did cross the line when the went away from their traditional blue to a darker one so there’d be a definite clash with the ABs.
And is that Brave Fight… a movie?

The "Brave Fight" is a book on the 1958 (?) French tour of SA. Dennis Le something rings a bell. Also wrote a novel set in the Algerian revolt.

 

[Drew]

Thanks. Will look for it.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Thanks. Will look for it.

Denis Lalanne, wiki page here:

Denis Lalanne - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

FWIW I thought he was a better rugby writer than novelist.

 

[Jeffrey]

Results-wise that's our worst year since 2009 when we lost four (France & SA x3) & the first time since 2000 we've lost to three different opponents (Australia, SA, France) in one year.

Like you I can accept defeat when the team's done everything they could to win but man there was some awful stuff on show this morning & last week. As Jeffrey & others have noted, we're still running with the 2010's game plan & it's not been good enough v England, Australia, Argentina, SA, Ireland & now France in the last 23 matches played (plus the draw v Australia), that's sub-70% for a team that historically wins 80% of the time. Something needs to change.

Absolutely.

We might have won 12 out of 15 - but let's not forget:
6 of those wins came against Tonga B, Fiji X 2, USA without European players, Italy, and Wales (missing a dozen players).
We beat the Argies twice - but everyone beat the Argies this year. Don't forget the Argies didn't even play at home. They started the RC in South Africa. We had 2 very nervy matches against the Boks, winning one and losing one to last minute penalties. South Africa looked like that tour to Australia was one tour too far after a brutal series with the Lions, losing twice to Australia.
And as usual, the wins are jacked up by the Bledisloe games.
This just follows the previous year, when we lost to Argentina for the first time, after we had lost to Ireland for the first time in 2016.

Finally, fatigue is a convenient excuse. The French players play in 14 team league, 26 domestic games a season. Most take part in European leagues, which adds in another 8 games. Then, like all international teams, they play a 13 or 14 game season. On average, a european player plays 1.5x the game of an AB, often in more attritional circumstances.
It's hard to really use travelling as an excuse either. When the Lions travel every 4 years, they bootcamp for a couple of weeks after a long season. They then play a warm-up, 5-6 provincial games, 1 vs an "A" team, and 3 official test matches, stretching slightly over 2 months. I haven't heard the Lions complaining they were too tired at the end of a long season.

It's not the losses (or indeed the wins). It's the performances, how we have stagnated in learning and improvement, and how we are self-satisfied with "we are always so harsh on the ABs" "we still won 12 games", or Moody's "we matched them up front". As if our teams don't face criticsm when they lose. Losses are no longer as painful, except for the likes of Coles who have been around when the old guard were still about. There's no problem with any of these views. It just makes RWC 2023 far more unlikely.

 

[Dan54]

I don't go along with the fatigue reason either really Jeffery, don't know if it is partial reason, but I struggle to accept it. I know it's usually used when NH teams travel south in July too,and from what I heard Lions players saying when explaining why as a team made up of best players from 4 countries, it's not just the number they play , but the fact it end of their season, but I will leave that to people who know more about it than me.
I really believe ABs are in a transition stage, we have to perhaps get used to fact that when we going well we will have 5-6 players who would be starters in a world XV , and now I not sure we would have more than 1 or 2. We look to be similar spoy to where we were late 90s, perhaps waiting for a few very good players to finish and others to develop a bit. I think we obviously lacking a bit in loosies and mid field, with perhaps someone like RMo finding his bubble bursting a little (remember people talking as him being best 10 in world earlier in year), and not being quite good as hoped at test level? That maybe trouble in a few spots, theink we have a lot of pretty good players with not a lot of great players.
I really think we also have to stop measuring ourselves against Wallabies etc, and perhaps like the rest of SH should look at how good NH rugby is and that just could be measuring stick?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

All Blacks seem to be slipping into wallabies mode a little where a few players are weapons, everyone else is there to get them the ball. When the opposition figures out who does what and apply pressure cohesion is lost. You’re a bigger threat when 1-15 are all threats, rather than 8, 10, 13-15. If that’s coaching, or continuity in selection, it seems a trait that’s gone missing the last few games.

Some truth perhaps in that as I would say nz have way more star players then Ireland but Ireland played the almost perfect team game. But let’s also look at Ireland and French leaving to play one of their best Games against the ABs and reckon if they played 3 test series I would probably still favour the ABs and you still have SA and ABs as top 2 ranked teams. I don’t know if it is realistic in the modern game to expect to win all the time. I do think some perspective needed before people start talking about decline of the ABs. Just ask the wallabies about that one!

 

[KiwiM]

Results-wise that's our worst year since 2009 when we lost four (France & SA x3) & the first time since 2000 we've lost to three different opponents (Australia, SA, France) in one year.

Like you I can accept defeat when the team's done everything they could to win but man there was some awful stuff on show this morning & last week. As Jeffrey & others have noted, we're still running with the 2010's game plan & it's not been good enough v England, Australia, Argentina, SA, Ireland & now France in the last 23 matches played (plus the draw v Australia), that's sub-70% for a team that historically wins 80% of the time. Something needs to change.

Good summary. it's not just the results - it's the way they are playing - a flawed approach to the game (both in attack and defence) that predictably gets exposed.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Records after two seasons of the last six AB coaches to have taken over at the start of a RWC cycle:

Grizz 11/12 (91%)
Mains 11/16 (68%)
Hart 20/22 (91%)
Henry 20/23 (87%)
Hansen 26/28 (93%)
Foster 15/21 (71%)

Overall records:

Grizz 26/30 (86%, only lost to Australia)
Mains 24/34 (70%, lost to World XV, B&I Lions, Australia, France & SA)
Hart 32/41 (78%, lost to SA, Australia & France)
Henry 89/104 (85%, lost to SA, Australia & France)
Hansen 97/107 (90%, lost to SA, Australia, France, England, B&I Lions & Ireland)

Mains the only one to finish with a higher overall win-percentage than in his first two seasons in charge. Kinda supports the notion that game plans get worked out over time.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

So you're saying there's hope for the rest of us? Sweet!

 

[rugboy]

Anyone know if the Baabaas v Samoa is streaming anywhere this weekend?