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NSW Schools Debating 2021

sada supremacy

Frank Row (1)
Absolutely gobsmacked to see what people are happy to say about literal children once they have the safety of an online mask...

@Shipnotsinking is going after a bunch of students who haven't done anything wrong. To think that even if you believed this you wouldn't have the common decency to keep your opinions to yourself instead of publicly shaming kids and volunteers!!!!! (I suppose you were right to delete your initial cowardly post but you didn't really redeem yourself by replacing it with basically the same thing with the modality and entitlement cranked up a notch)

I shiver to think about what kind of deap sea creature sense of morality or inflated sense of deluded authority it takes to post this kind of nonsense. If you are so enraged by the team, certain that you would have made a better decision and confident that this is so important, why don't you talk to the coaches yourself? I checked that history link you posted and I'm sure two coaches who won every single national championship they attended could explain it to you!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely terrible and horrendous post.

The person behind it needs to examine themself.

The amount of anti-good faith bias in this thread is ridiculous and has now reached a breaking point.
 

benten

Frank Row (1)
(a) Halfback4Lyfe, just to clarify, the vice-captain role was introduced into the state team this year by the NSWDU. While I cannot draw a conclusion as to why it was introduced in particular, I do not believe that it was against the best interests of our State's performance at the National Schools Debating Championships as I am sure that Daniel, Ellie and the rest of the coaches who run the team have our state's best interests at heart. As after all, they themselves debated for our state/nation and understand the drive to succeed at the NSDC and WSDC. While I wish not to entertain Shipnotsinking's quite polarising claims about the nature of the vice-captaincy, I will say this. To validate their claims, we must wait and see as to whether NSWDU actually continues to give out the roles in the future. This is because if it is just for this year, there is probably some extent of legitimacy behind Shipnotsinking's claims.

(b) This is a fair point, and I will say this, do not shun the competency of the other debaters in the state squad. From my sources, I have heard that Alex Bako is a brilliant debater in her own right and that she has superb oratory skills. I am sure that while Grammar has boys on par with her, there was probably some justification for the NSWDU's ultimate decision and I will respect that decision as they have steered us and established us as the most successful state at the National Schools Debating Championships. And by the way, I am sure that Alex and Brendon will lead our team to yet another National Premiership.

(c) I've pretty much responded to this earlier in this post.


does anyone have any actual sources/screenshots to prove this vice captain thing? there seems to be a lot of contradictory accounts. perhaps [snip] could clarify where they got the information from but it really seems like we should all be taking this thread with a grain of salt and should just go back to studying for the hsc instead of kicking around on this lame debating thread.
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
Brendon Chen is the rightful captain of this team not Alex Bako.

This is the FIRST TIME in NSW History that a returning speaker of a National Champion team has not gotten Captaincy. Chen is the only returning speaker from the 2020 National Champion team and Bako is not since she was reserve team. Returning national champion speakers 100% of the time get captaincy over reserves - Ally Pitt, Dan Yim, Eden Blair, Imogen Harper, James Stratton are recent examples of this, even Andrew O’Keefe back in 1989. See https://nswdu.com/index.php/history/ .

Chen’s ‘Vice-Captain’ role is to cushion and hide the fact he was robbed of his Captaincy - simply because he goes to Grammar. Shameful anti-Grammar bias in this political, non-merit decision.

DebatingNerd, what’s the State Team cap per school? I’m now hearing rumours it is actually 2 per school. Can you confirm?


Shipnotsinking, I am only aware of a state squad cap which is at 4 people per school but again this is through a source, so I can't actually provide proof for the legitimacy of this claim. However, I can assure you that the source is quite reliable. On the other hand, I am not aware of any state team cap (Note state squad and state team are very different).
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
Absolutely gobsmacked to see what people are happy to say about literal children once they have the safety of an online mask.

@Shipnotsinking is going after a bunch of students who haven't done anything wrong. To think that even if you believed this you wouldn't have the common decency to keep your opinions to yourself instead of publicly shaming kids and volunteers!!!!! (I suppose you were right to delete your initial cowardly post but you didn't really redeem yourself by replacing it with basically the same thing with the modality and entitlement cranked up a notch)

I shiver to think about what kind of deap sea creature sense of morality or inflated sense of deluded authority it takes to post this kind of nonsense. If you are so enraged by the team, certain that you would have made a better decision and confident that this is so important, why don't you talk to the coaches yourself? I checked that history link you posted and I'm sure two coaches who won every single national championship they attended could explain it to you!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely terrible and horrendous post.

The person behind it needs to examine themself.

The amount of anti-good faith bias in this thread is ridiculous and has now reached a breaking point.


I agree with sada supremacy, please try not to launch smear campaigns against students and coaches and together let's keep this forum from becoming a polarised, toxic cesspool of commentary on NSW Schools Debating and let's try to keep things civil.
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
Absolutely gobsmacked to see what people are happy to say about literal children once they have the safety of an online mask.

@Shipnotsinking is going after a bunch of students who haven't done anything wrong. To think that even if you believed this you wouldn't have the common decency to keep your opinions to yourself instead of publicly shaming kids and volunteers!!!!! (I suppose you were right to delete your initial cowardly post but you didn't really redeem yourself by replacing it with basically the same thing with the modality and entitlement cranked up a notch)

I shiver to think about what kind of deap sea creature sense of morality or inflated sense of deluded authority it takes to post this kind of nonsense. If you are so enraged by the team, certain that you would have made a better decision and confident that this is so important, why don't you talk to the coaches yourself? I checked that history link you posted and I'm sure two coaches who won every single national championship they attended could explain it to you!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely terrible and horrendous post.

The person behind it needs to examine themself.

The amount of anti-good faith bias in this thread is ridiculous and has now reached a breaking point.


But at the same time while calling out other members in the forum is fair dinkum but "deap sea creature sense of morality" and "inflated sense of deluded authority" is taking it too far. Once again, it is fine to have disagreements just don't bombard each other and students/coaches with negative comments that have been seen today, not just exclusively from Shipnotsinking.
 

Halfback4Lyfe

Frank Row (1)
(a) Halfback4Lyfe, just to clarify, the vice-captain role was introduced into the state team this year by the NSWDU. While I cannot draw a conclusion as to why it was introduced in particular, I do not believe that it was against the best interests of our State's performance at the National Schools Debating Championships as I am sure that Daniel, Ellie and the rest of the coaches who run the team have our state's best interests at heart. As after all, they themselves debated for our state/nation and understand the drive to succeed at the NSDC and WSDC. While I wish not to entertain Shipnotsinking's quite polarising claims about the nature of the vice-captaincy, I will say this. To validate their claims, we must wait and see as to whether NSWDU actually continues to give out the roles in the future. This is because if it is just for this year, there is probably some extent of legitimacy behind Shipnotsinking's claims.

(b) This is a fair point, and I will say this, do not shun the competency of the other debaters in the state squad. From my sources, I have heard that Alex Bako is a brilliant debater in her own right and that she has superb oratory skills. I am sure that while Grammar has boys on par with her, there was probably some justification for the NSWDU's ultimate decision and I will respect that decision as they have steered us and established us as the most successful state at the National Schools Debating Championships. And by the way, I am sure that Alex and Brendon will lead our team to yet another National Premiership.

(c) I've pretty much responded to this earlier in this post.

You’re gonna look pretty silly when no one can back up this mysterious VC claim lmao
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
You’re gonna look pretty silly when no one can back up this mysterious VC claim lmao


Yea that's true lmao, I shouldn't blindly trust sources on a shady debating forum. But Shipnotsinking the forum would appreciate some proof of the VC claim that you are putting forth. I guess we'll find out anyways when the NSWDU History Page is updated later in the year.
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
But now, regarding something that's actually relevant to debating. Do we have updates on ISDA last Friday night and Eastside. Also do we have any picks for Octos?
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
Ok, what the hell, how does this forum have 2700 views. There are like 6 people who actually write stuff on it lmao.
Screenshot (470).png
 

thatWasToSay

Bob McCowan (2)
do we have any picks for Octos?


Trying to get things back on track.

Here's what Senior A Octos are looking like (The Octos are in order, so debates next to each other lead into the same Quarter, the top four Octos lead into the same semi etc)

A1 Grammar v Shore (Kambala) D4
B2 SCEGGS v Pymble (LK) C3

C1 Scots v MLC B4
D2 Kambala (Monte) v Barker (Knox) A3


B1 Newington v Loretto (Abbotsleigh/Pymble) C4
A2 St Aloysius v Monte (Shore/Kambala) D3

D1 Cranbrook v Knox (Kings/Barker) A4
C2 St Lukes v Riverview B3

If there are still multiple possibilities for a position, I've put my prediction, with the other possibilities in Brackets

My breaking predictions are based on
  • Kambala (4 wins) beating Kincoppal (2)
  • Shore (4) beating Ravenswood (1)
  • Knox (3) beating Queenwood (1)
  • Pymble (3) beating Wenona (1) by a 2+ margin
Here are my predictions with those Octos.
  • Grammar def. Shore
  • Pymble def. SCEGGS
  • MLC def. Scots
  • Kambala def. Barker
  • Newington def. Loretto
  • St Aloysius def. Monte
  • Cranbrook def. Knox
  • Riverview def. St Lukes
Some possibly controversial picks in there, some 3rd and 4th ranking teams I've picked to win, so I would be keen to hear other peoples thoughts. I think Pool B having all 4 breaking teams on 5 wins in particular has seen some strong teams breaking lower. Some of those Octos could still change, so the picks may end up being irrelevant anyway. Also let me know if I screwed up any of the maths in building the bracket.
 

jabberwocky1749

Frank Row (1)
Not weighing in on the 'anti-Grammar bias' debate though will note that it is unlikely, given that one of the state coaches is an ex-Grammar boy. Nor does there seem to be actual evidence for the vice-captain role (though surely it would be worse if the Year eleven from last year was stranded without any recognition?). Very surprised though that no one has pointed out an obvious link: both state coaches work as coaches for Kambala's development program, with one of the state coaches even being the NSW captain's ISDA coach. There have been previous instances in which state coaches have selected their own kids into the team, but the unusual appointment of the captaincy, and the inclusion of two Kambala debaters into the team and reserve selection including the captain may point to a conflict of interest.

Regardless, the decision to sack the year eleven from last year seems harsh, to say the least. It signals a lack of confidence in the decision of the previous NSW coaches, who evidently believed that Chen was more deserving than the other two reserves and was sufficiently skilled enough to be the sole year eleven in what ended up being a nationals-winning team. On the slim chance that his debating skills had significantly deteriorated, the experience of having debated in and winning the nationals tournament, being the only returning member of the team, would have been an useful quality for the team captain, even if he was no longer the best debater on the team. Have never seen either Chen or Bako debate so cannot comment on their debating calibre.

The important thing though is that if there was foul play in the team selection (a previous post suggested that a few members of the squad were privately tutored by a state coach, though that may just be another example of g&g toxicity) , none of the blame should fall on the team, who are innocent and totally uninvolved in the selection process. Personal slander directed at any of them is absolutely disgraceful: they're high school kids and talented ones to boot. I'm sure no matter what happened, Chen and Bako are incredibly talented and will achieve great success in the future. Any fault lies squarely on the hands of the NSW coaches and it remains to see how this develops.
 

thatWasToSay

Bob McCowan (2)
Debates tonight:

Kambala vs Kincoppal
Pymble vs Wenona
Ascham vs Joeys
Knox vs Queenwood
Queenwood vs Shore

Good luck to all! 1sts speakers should be speaking as I post this.


Kambala def. Kincoppal (3 Margin)
Pymble def. Wenona (1)
Joeys def. Ascham (2)
Queenwood def. Knox (1)
Shore def. Ravenswood (1)

  • Grammar v Shore
  • MLC v Scots
  • Kambala v Barker
  • St Aloysius v Monte
  • Riverview v St Lukes
These 5 debates still stand. Pymble didn't get the +2 margin they needed to get up over LK, so they swap Octos, and Knox failed to win, so Kings get the octo spot over them, giving us the following new matchups.

SCEGGS v Loretto Kirribilli
Newington v Pymble
Cranbrook v Kings

Predictions?
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
SCEGGS, Newington and a coin flip between Cranbrook and Kings are my predictions.

PS. Where can you watch the debates of the National Schools Debating Championships. I've been wanting to watch these for quite some time.

PPS. While I know this is a NSW Schools Debating Forum, are there any updates on University debating for anyone in the loop for that? Ie. Easters, Australs, UNSW/USyd Teams, etc.
 

thatWasToSay

Bob McCowan (2)
Senior A ISDA Octos tomorrow

SCEGGS v Loretto Kirribilli
St Aloysius v Monte
Grammar v Shore
Scots v MLC

I'll go, Loretto, Aloys, Grammar and MLC.
 

thatWasToSay

Bob McCowan (2)

"That Religions should have to pay tax" or something similar

Senior A ISDA Octos tomorrow

SCEGGS v Loretto Kirribilli
St Aloysius v Monte
Grammar v Shore
Scots v MLC

I'll go, Loretto, Aloys, Grammar and MLC.


I think the SCEGGS debate was postponed, but in the other two MLC def. Scots and St Aloysius def. Monte.

I'm not sure how they did sides, but I've heard it might've been the side listed first on the draw as Aff, in which case, Aloys won from the aff, MLC from the neg and Shore from the neg.

Edit: The ISDA Spreadsheet has Grammar winning the debate v Shore. Perhaps The Debating Gentleman's post was in reference to the Year 10 debate.
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
Hello all,

Are there any updates on what went down last Friday night?
I am sure it was eventful with ISDA and Eastside having their finals.

Sorry I haven't been as active on the forums as I usually am, otherwise I would've posted results/predictions over the weekend.

I am quite occupied right now with exams and the like.

Does anyone have ISDA/Eastside topics?
 

Indecisive

Frank Row (1)
Hey all,

New member of the forum here, excited to hopefully contribute to discourse on an excellent Friday pastime. I've seen several comments been made here on the quality of ISDA topics this season. While I admit that I have few points of comparison, I feel outside of one or two atrocious choices, on the whole it's been solid, with a few really good ones thrown in. The complete list of topics during the pool stages are listed below:


R1: That education and healthcare personnel (e.g. doctors, teachers) should be rotated between private and public systems.​
R2: That we should ban corporations from funding academic research​
R3: That the environmental movement should adopt a strategy of working closely with corporations.​
R4: That social media companies should never ban politicians from their platforms, even where they regularly violate the terms of service.​
R5: That non-violent offences committed by a significant proportion of the population (e.g. jaywalking, internet piracy) should be automatically legalised.​
R6: That the government should fully subsidise university degrees for individuals whose gender is significantly underrepresented in that field (e.g. women in engineering, men in nursing)​
R7: That the United States should persist with the Trump Administration's aggressive stance against China.​

Personally I think that Rounds 3, 4 and 7 are all particularly interesting, with 5 being a bit whacky and the rest mediocre.

As for tonight's 5 debates, I haven't seen enough of most sides to make strong predictions, but I am curious as to the preformance of Cranbrook and Riverview. Cranbrook are not historically strong school, but their exceptional pool preformance is worth noting. If they are as strong as hammerandstrike claims them to be, CAS will be tightly contested this year between Knox, Aloys, Cranbrook, and Barker, which will keep things interesting. Riverview I've heard only has one year 12 in the current 1sts side, and the two year 11s both made callbacks for state I believe, so while they may not be favourites this year, they may well become strong title contenders next season.

Certainly it's shaping up to be an interesting finals run for many teams.
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
Hey all,

New member of the forum here, excited to hopefully contribute to discourse on an excellent Friday pastime. I've seen several comments been made here on the quality of ISDA topics this season. While I admit that I have few points of comparison, I feel outside of one or two atrocious choices, on the whole it's been solid, with a few really good ones thrown in. The complete list of topics during the pool stages are listed below:


R1: That education and healthcare personnel (e.g. doctors, teachers) should be rotated between private and public systems.​
R2: That we should ban corporations from funding academic research​
R3: That the environmental movement should adopt a strategy of working closely with corporations.​
R4: That social media companies should never ban politicians from their platforms, even where they regularly violate the terms of service.​
R5: That non-violent offences committed by a significant proportion of the population (e.g. jaywalking, internet piracy) should be automatically legalised.​
R6: That the government should fully subsidise university degrees for individuals whose gender is significantly underrepresented in that field (e.g. women in engineering, men in nursing)​
R7: That the United States should persist with the Trump Administration's aggressive stance against China.​

Personally I think that Rounds 3, 4 and 7 are all particularly interesting, with 5 being a bit whacky and the rest mediocre.

As for tonight's 5 debates, I haven't seen enough of most sides to make strong predictions, but I am curious as to the preformance of Cranbrook and Riverview. Cranbrook are not historically strong school, but their exceptional pool preformance is worth noting. If they are as strong as hammerandstrike claims them to be, CAS will be tightly contested this year between Knox, Aloys, Cranbrook, and Barker, which will keep things interesting. Riverview I've heard only has one year 12 in the current 1sts side, and the two year 11s both made callbacks for state I believe, so while they may not be favourites this year, they may well become strong title contenders next season.

Certainly it's shaping up to be an interesting finals run for many teams.



Hello all,

Thank you Indecisive and welcome to the forum! I am sure you will be a fine addition to our collection. I have no idea how the Aff wins on the Round 5 topic, but apart from that the topics don't seem to be as bad as [snip] has made them out to be. Or perhaps they are bad and I can't see that they are bad because of my potato brain at 2:20AM (I have no life and should probably be studying for the HSC lmao).

It is quite surprising to see Grammar knocked out by Shore, they are perhaps the strongest school team in NSW right now, boasting an entire team of State Squad speakers which is no mean feat. While this is surprising to say the least, I will not stir up any questions or provide any commentary about the legitimacy of Shore's win as that will likely start another wildfire in this forum lmao. But that leaves the gates wide open for another school to take the ISDA Premiership this year, so it will be quite interesting to see who does.

The news about the Riverview team that you are providing is quite interesting, they may be a dark horse to look out for in GPS later this year. But I reckon with physical adjudicating which often has greater accountability, Grammar should come out on top because of the sheer dominance they have exhibited this year.

Also, apparently Lawrence Campbell already happened. I somehow did not realise that it did until a little while ago. Does anyone know the results for the competition (ie. first, second, third). And on top of that what was the topic this year?
 

DebatingNerd

Frank Nicholson (4)
Also any predictions for this Friday night? I do not believe the results for ISDA are going to be as crystal-clear with Grammar out.
 
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