NSW Schools Debating 2023

[rugbyAU]

I think others have noted that there are five mains teams who have a chance (Grammar, Joeys, High, Scots and Riverview). Personally though, I think only three teams that have good chances (Grammar, Joeys and High). I'll be going through each school in order of what I feel to be their likelihood of winning.

1. Grammar

Grammar are probably my favourites coming into this GPS season due to a few reasons. Winning ISDA obviously shows the strength of their team, with strong individual performances from the three year 12s on the team (Kasra, Remy and Daniel) in the finals helping to secure them the trophy. Historically they have always performed well in the GPS competition and I think, given the success that they saw in ISDA, they should be good to go for GPS. Overall, a very strong team who I'd probably predict two reps from in GPS 1sts.

28% chance to win
Predicted Record of 6-1


2. SBHS

SBHS performed poorly in Eastside but despite that, I think they'll still do well in GPS. Eastside has never been a good indicator for SBHS's performance in GPS (maybe due to its wackier topics under Mikey Xu?) so I don't think much weight should be placed on their results. In PDC however, they've done very well, with their A team reaching the top 4 and defeating James Ruse Year 12 twice (who have Darshanik Aryal on their team) which at least suggests that they have consistency within their team. In terms of standout talent, I only know of Abrar Chowdhury in Year 12 who was in CHS 2nds last year but I've been told that in this year's CHS squad, there are three members from SBHS. This team also defeated Grammar 2nds last year and is historically pretty successful, maybe a member in GPS 2nds? (as the top debaters go to CHS). They should be a competitor in this season.

27% chance to win
Predicted Record of 6-1


3. Joeys

Joeys staged a surprising performance last year, winning both 1sts and 2nds GPS in a field which had exceptionally strong Grammar and SBHS teams. The reason I had them at 3rd is mainly because one, their ISDA performance, while excellent, saw them falling short to an Aloys team who Grammar proceeded to fairly clearly win against (although topic selection obviously played a part) and two, I don't know of any standout talent from this team as opposed to Grammar and High who appear to have some excellent standout speakers. However, DON'T underestimate this team, despite having them at 3rd, I wouldn't be surprised if they won and I think all these three teams have excellent chances in the upcoming comp and I still have them at a 6-1 record.

26% chance to win
Predicted Record of 6-1


4. Scots

Scots are probably the last true contender this season? Perfect group stage (albeit in a relatively easy division) and a State Speaker (Jehiel Pather) are big positives for their team. They did however lose to a Barker team (containing National Reserve Iris Lee) who proceeded to lose to Grammar and I don't know how much their State speaker can take them in GPS. Still a good team who I could see beating one of the three above teams. However, I would be pretty surprised if they won it all (still not out of the picture however). They'll definitely be a good team at the least.

14% chance to win
Predicted Record of 4-3


5. Riverview

Riverview are a good but not great team. They won 6 in a weaker Pool D ISDA, showing consistency at the minimum in being able to beat weaker teams. They lost in a tough quarters matchup with Joeys, probably showing their ceiling. Should still be a good team and upsets I think are possible but I don't expect them to be near title contention.

3% chance to win
Predicted Record of 3-4


6. Shore

Shore went well in a relatively weak Pool A, getting second with 5-2. They also have a state speaker (Michael Kwak) who is somehow in their 2nd grade and honestly, this team has much better chances to win 2nds than 1sts (I mean they made Semis ISDA Senior B). Historically, they've been decent and I think they could beat Riverview, possibly getting into the top half if Scots slide. But like Riverview, I don't see them near title contention.

2% chance to win
Predicted Record of 2-5


7. Kings

So, Kings and Newington are probably both the weakest teams in this comp this year by a fair margin. Both were in Pool C, finishing second last and last respectively and failing to get to the knockouts. Kings won two debates but Newington beat Kings so I honestly have no clue how these two will finish. I'd probably put Kings at 7th due to winning two at least against somewhat stronger schools (MLC and Cranbrook). I don't see either of these teams even pulling off upsets barring the case of wildly imbalanced topics.

<1% chance to win
Predicted Record of 1-6


8. Newington

I don't even think Newington are that bad of a team but GPS is always incredibly stacked and their ISDA division (C) was pretty strong all the way down. For more, see above comments in the Kings section.

<1% chance to win
Predicted Record of 0-7





And that's a wrap on my GPS thoughts. I'll be very interested to see the performances of certain teams and speakers. Some key debates to look out for include Joeys vs Grammar (4/8), Joeys vs High (18/8) and High vs Grammar (8/9). Scots vs Riverview (28/7) in the first week should also be interesting to gauge the strength of those two teams. But I think that's all to discuss, looking forward to the season and wishing all teams the best of luck!

Agree with @BobJones High is ranked too highly, Grammar in reality have a much stronger chance than 28%, also Dan from SGS is in Yr 11

 

[The Bait]

It seems probable that GPS would seek to select the best overall lineup rather than just the four best speakers. The Shore State Speaker appears to speak first, so I expect him to be a lock. However, the Scotts Speaker appears to speak second, which will bring a lot more competition, especially from Riverview and Grammar. Therefore, I would not be surprised if there are State Speakers in the 2s for GPS, which could allow them to go three for three there. Regardless, there is a surplus of great and highly talented speakers in all divisions (so every speaker should be proud nonetheless), making selections truly a nightmare. We will have to wait and see.

Maybe they will put one of the Second speakers as third to solve this puzzle unless they go for a specialist 3rd, maybe Joeys ? So View,Scots and Grammar vying for 2 spots ?. They don’t really have a 4th speaker as they don’t rotate the teams so 4th best speaker debates in the Seconds. They just slot speakers up if say one of the first 3 is not available.

CHS has specialist speakers for each 3 spots as does CAS.

Will be a pretty close comp for the Firsts but agree that GPS look almost unbeatable in the 2nds.

 

[i-debate]

IMO Grammar have a much higher win probability than stated. Don’t know much about High, I think they only had 1 state callback speaker (name escapes me) so I’d have to say Joeys for a clear cut second. Either Scots or High for 3rd. Shore might surprise depending on State speaker.

For a competition of this stature, they really should be debating with an adj panel for the firsts.

With regards to rep teams hope they pick the team on speaker points and not just on past performances.

 

[BobJones]

Not that I disagree but what is the basis for the widespread predictions of Joeys and High being quite strong, whilst View and Scots are expected to be weaker?

Reportedly Scots splits their GPS firsts team between ISDA and other competitions such as FED /Eastside, and other schools such as View/Shore are re-selecting teams for the GPS season.

Must agree that Grammar are clear favourites to win the competition (70%), they simply operate on another level compared to every other school in NSW, and likely have 3 of the best speakers in the state currently.

Are there any insights on other notable speakers to watch out for in GPS?

 

[i-debate]

Must agree that Grammar are clear favourites to win the competition (70%), they simply operate on another level compared to every other school in NSW, and likely have 3 of the best speakers in the state currently.

Are there any insights on other notable speakers to watch out for in GPS?

Loving the Grammar confidence Bob which I agree with. Be interested into why you think Grammar has 3 of the best speakers in NSW. Only asking as I haven’t seen them debate, how do they compare to the NSW team and other rep / top debaters ?

 

[fact checker]

Not that I disagree but what is the basis for the widespread predictions of Joeys and High being quite strong, whilst View and Scots are expected to be weaker?

Reportedly Scots splits their GPS firsts team between ISDA and other competitions such as FED /Eastside, and other schools such as View/Shore are re-selecting teams for the GPS season.

Must agree that Grammar are clear favourites to win the competition (70%), they simply operate on another level compared to every other school in NSW, and likely have 3 of the best speakers in the state currently.

Are there any insights on other notable speakers to watch out for in GPS?

All respect to the grammar boys - they're one of the strongest teams and a clear favourite I agree. But claiming they have the 3 best speakers in the state is grossly incorrect - more like 3 of the top 10 speakers all round (still a mighty feat). How on earth do the best '3 speakers in the state currently' not include the literal captain of aus team or any of the state team for that matter?

 

[Romanforum]

All respect to the grammar boys - they're one of the strongest teams and a clear favourite I agree. But claiming they have the 3 best speakers in the state is grossly incorrect - more like 3 of the top 10 speakers all round (still a mighty feat). How on earth do the best '3 speakers in the state currently' not include the literal captain of aus team or any of the state team for that matter?

It’s interesting how to measure ‘best speakers in the state.’ Not sure you can.
For sure the state team has to be up there, but I agree there are other strong speakers around as well. IMO we have excellent debating talent which will no doubt be showcased in the upcoming rep debating season.

 

[Asdyjftj]

I've heard at least 2 GPS schools have made changes in their firsts lineups, but I guess that will be confirmed in a few weeks.

 

[DebatingNerd]

Not that I disagree but what is the basis for the widespread predictions of Joeys and High being quite strong, whilst View and Scots are expected to be weaker?

Reportedly Scots splits their GPS firsts team between ISDA and other competitions such as FED /Eastside, and other schools such as View/Shore are re-selecting teams for the GPS season.

Must agree that Grammar are clear favourites to win the competition (70%), they simply operate on another level compared to every other school in NSW, and likely have 3 of the best speakers in the state currently.

Are there any insights on other notable speakers to watch out for in GPS?

3 best speakers in the state?
Romanforum is spot on, if you do a reality-check and look at the state team, even squad, that just isn't true.

By the way, this is in no way undermining the current ISDA Premiers - they are absolutely a strong team in their own right - it's just that this claim is incredibly dumb.
Also the number of state speakers =/= win chances. Merely look at last year for that.
Grammar with National Representatives and half of the NSW Team, Sydney Boys with half of the Premiership winning team that dethroned Story/Mok in 1s.
Who won? Joeys. Not Grammar nor High.
Because when it comes down to the wire debating is about the combined effort of 3 people and how a team works together - Joey's clearly had that on lock when they pulled off one of the greatest upsets we've probably ever seen or will see in a long time without a single robbery to aid them.

Unsurprisingly enough, the same people saying Grammar is 2 leagues above everyone else in the competition are the same ones that started moaning about "institutional anti-Grammar bias" in the NSWDU.

If you're going to make calls like that, have the GPS win records piled behind you to talk your talk.

 

[DebatingNerd]

Not that I disagree but what is the basis for the widespread predictions of Joeys and High being quite strong, whilst View and Scots are expected to be weaker?

Reportedly Scots splits their GPS firsts team between ISDA and other competitions such as FED /Eastside, and other schools such as View/Shore are re-selecting teams for the GPS season.

Must agree that Grammar are clear favourites to win the competition (70%), they simply operate on another level compared to every other school in NSW, and likely have 3 of the best speakers in the state currently.

Are there any insights on other notable speakers to watch out for in GPS?

But yes, BobJones there are indeed other teams and speakers are worth looking out for in this tournament of 8 schools

Speakers I'd say to look out for are:
Jehiel Pather, Jason Lin, Remy Sloan, Daniel Lloyd-Hurwitz, Abrar Chowdhury, Michael Kwak, Kasra Roushan

In terms of younger promising talent, I haven't the slightest - maybe we'll see some more speakers pop up in the tournament that are promising candidates to steer the helm of NSW debating into the future.

 

[fact checker]

It’s interesting how to measure ‘best speakers in the state.’ Not sure you can.
For sure the state team has to be up there, but I agree there are other strong speakers around as well. IMO we have excellent debating talent which will no doubt be showcased in the upcoming rep debating season.

Do agree to an extent - it is hard to quantify who exactly are the 'best'. But I obviously do think indicators like making state squad/team or reps are somewhat relevant - especially for recognising speakers that don't come from established schools with a history of strong coaching programs and all round good speakers that mean winning competitions are far more feasible. Just because a school has done or does well in a circuit doesn't necessarily mean all the best speakers must come from that school - the depth, consistency and chemistry of a team can beat even the best individual performance (as DebatingNerd points out). Wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that the pool of talent looks promising this year - have high hopes for a great series of rep debates!

 

[GPSspectator]

Perhaps Sydney Boys High School is ranked too high, given they lost to a Scots Eastside team, which went on to win 12 Eastside. Riverview would seem more suitable as 2nd most probable to win. Otherwise, would concur.

Unsure about High but Riverview at 2nd seems a bit too high given that they lost to Scots and Joeys in ISDA and don't have too many star debaters on their team. Obviously they are historically solid but 2nd?

 

[Asdyjftj]

Unsure about High but Riverview at 2nd seems a bit too high given that they lost to Scots and Joeys in ISDA and don't have too many star debaters on their team. Obviously they are historically solid but 2nd?

I'd put Grammar at a 30% chance of winning and View, Scots, Joeys, and High at around 15% each. There are no longer panels, and there's always luck involved.

 

[Romanforum]

I'd put Grammar at a 30% chance of winning and View, Scots, Joeys, and High at around 15% each. There are no longer panels, and there's always luck involved.

Grammar favourites with Joeys second for mine. In ISDA they beat a full strength Barker in the hardest pool, then View in the QF before losing to a strong Aloys. Good team chemistry and an excellent coach.

PDC looks to be a battle for moore park supremacy between High and SGHS but others still in it.

CAS to come down to Barker v Aloys with Barker Second v Aloys Third a key match up.

Archdale between SCEGGS, Abbotsleigh and Queenwood. SCEGGS probably favourite, Abbotsleigh second- SCEGGS first v Abbotsleigh Second a key match up.

 

[The Bait]

Does anyone know who made the CHS rep team ? Trials were held late June.

 

[GPSspectator]

Does anyone know who made the CHS rep team ? Trials were held late June.

Teams haven't been chosen yet but an initial squad of 16 has been chosen. Some information to note from that squad of 16 is that SBHS and SGHS both hit the 3 man cap (to my knowledge no other school did). In terms of predicting 1st grade CHS, I think Nationals Captain Darshanik Aryal (Ruse 12) and State Reserves Alexia Rigoni (Cammergayl 12) and Anhaar Kareem (SGHS 11) should be locks? Probably then Abrar Chowdhury (SBHS 12) who was 2nds last year and was one of the two Year 11s from 2nds last year (alongside Alexia Rigoni). In terms of the 5th speaker for 1st grade (who I think will speak as I believe CHS coincides with Worlds?) I don't know who will make it, maybe another SBHS/SGHS speaker? I'm unaware of any speakers from other public schools so those would be my first guess.

 

[The Bait]

Teams haven't been chosen yet but an initial squad of 16 has been chosen. Some information to note from that squad of 16 is that SBHS and SGHS both hit the 3 man cap (to my knowledge no other school did). In terms of predicting 1st grade CHS, I think Nationals Captain Darshanik Aryal (Ruse 12) and State Reserves Alexia Rigoni (Cammergayl 12) and Anhaar Kareem (SGHS 11) should be locks? Probably then Abrar Chowdhury (SBHS 12) who was 2nds last year and was one of the two Year 11s from 2nds last year (alongside Alexia Rigoni). In terms of the 5th speaker for 1st grade (who I think will speak as I believe CHS coincides with Worlds?) I don't know who will make it, maybe another SBHS/SGHS speaker? I'm unaware of any speakers from other public schools so those would be my first guess.

Thanks. Here are my predictions in speaker order for the firsts rep teams. Welcome any feedback.

CHS:
1st Speaker: Anhaar Kareem (SGHS)
2nd: Alexia Rigoni (Cammeraygal)
3rd: Darshanik Aryal (Ruse)

GPS:
1st: Michael Kwak (Shore)
2nd: Daniel Lloyd-Hurwitz (Grammar)
3rd: Jehiel Pather (Scots)
So an all year 11 team.

CAS:
1st: Eammon O’Loughlin (Aloysius)
2nd: Iris Lee (Barker)
3rd: Christian Mossati (Aloysius)

IGSA:
1st; Helena Piazza (SCEGGS)
2nd: Charlotte Allan (Abbotsleigh)
3rd: Nikki Han ( Queenwood)

Anyone game to predict the winner ? It’s bursting with talent this year.

And IMO, these kids represent the top debating talent in NSW.

 

[fact checker]

There appears to be a degree of discontent with the NSWDU selection process. Not winning the title for a number of years is no doubt a contributor. Some saying how can you not have any Grammar kids when they win ISDA, others saying the State team needs to ‘make way’ for others in the GPS rep team, others saying there are better speakers around not in the team as well as NSWDU selecting kids who aren’t in the first III of their school team or not as highly rated by their own school.

The current selection process involves one debate then a quiz to make top 24, a couple of zoom debates to make top 12 before a series of debates for the final 6.

Is this the ideal process ? Who knows but given NSW is not winning, it’s worth revisiting as is how the team prepares for the nationals. A lot has been said about team chemistry so that too should be taken into account.

My view is NSWDU selected the best team based on the criteria they were searching for - these kids should be congratulated without the negative undertones.

For those excellent speakers around who missed out, best of luck in GPS and other comps and hope you make the rep teams.

I do agree with this generally - couple of my own thoughts on this. For those who say that grammar kids deserve to be on the team based on their school record in ISDA fail to realise that NSWDU trials are based on individual performance rather than which team wins in the trial debates. So NSWDU actually rewards individual speakers who may not come from the strongest private school with the most depth/speaker conistency but perform individually well and have strong chemistry within the squad.

I would also note that school selections are somewhat irrelevant compared to state trials. I mean I doubt most schools hold more than 3 sessions of trials. Compare that to the vigorous 3 round selection process (that increases in number of debates each time) of NSWDU. Perhaps we need a revision of the process but dare I say it far outstrips any school trial process. For this reason I'm not very shocked to see members of state team and state squad that aren't in the top team of their school (perhaps certain schools have a policy of putting Year 12s on the Firsts no matter what, perhaps they messed up on the day of school/state trials, perhaps - gasp- they improved who knows?). Regardless, it's honestly silly to see people undermine the achievements of certain speakers just because they aren't from a strong house like grammar or debate in the 2nd III.

 

[fact checker]

Thanks. Here are my predictions in speaker order for the firsts rep teams. Welcome any feedback.

CHS:
1st Speaker: Anhaar Kareem (SGHS)
2nd: Alexia Rigoni (Cammeraygal)
3rd: Darshanik Aryal (Ruse)

GPS:
1st: Michael Kwak (Shore)
2nd: Daniel Lloyd-Hurwitz (Grammar)
3rd: Jehiel Pather (Scots)
So an all year 11 team.

CAS:
1st: Eammon O’Loughlin (Aloysius)
2nd: Iris Lee (Barker)
3rd: Christian Mossati (Aloysius)

IGSA:
1st; Helena Piazza (SCEGGS)
2nd: Charlotte Allan (Abbotsleigh)
3rd: Nikki Han ( Queenwood)

Anyone game to predict the winner ? It’s bursting with talent this year.

And IMO, these kids represent the top debating talent in NSW.

Do rep teams have defined speaking roles or can coaches mix around speakers? Quite a few speakers on this list speak positions other than what they've been listed as (Nikki Han, Alexia Rigoni, Michael Kwak etc). Also given Michael Kwak was in state team, surely coaches put him 2nd or 3rd?

 

[Debater]

I think it is worth noting that the kids who were the best in March may not still be the best kids come June and those kids may not be the best ones come August/September. Some teams dramatically improve and some get worse. It is hard to make state and school selections when skill level changes so frequently. There is no way of telling who will improve so the selectors just have to take who was best at the time of selection and hope for the best.