Pumas vs Wallabies - Sunday 9th October @ Twickenham

[barbarian]

Was a pretty good performance, happy to get the win. Easy to forget we played only 60 minutes with 15 players.

I generally cringe when I read those 'things we learned' articles (as opposed to my piercing 'observation' pieces), but I genuinely think we learned a few things tonight:

- Lopeti Timani is a test player. I wasn't sure if this would be the case, but he was a pleasant surprise. Brought the physicality. Not a MOTM effort but a very good start.

- Samu Kerevi is a star. That was his breakout game, though a lot of us saw it coming. Just keeps getting better every day.

- Cooper has secured 10, while Foley struggles. This was the first game where I thought Quade was head and shoulders above Foley. If To'omua was around I'd put him in at 12, but honestly I don't think we've got anyone to fill the spot.

It was a pretty good defensive effort, the Argies are exhausting to watch let alone tackle. Set piece was solid enough, and Foley kicked well.

Second in the Rugby Championship. Hard to be super excited about that but it's nice, I suppose.
.

 

[Highlander35]

What was with the discipline?

Good performance otherwise IMO.

 

[dru]

A more baffling refereeing performance has never happened.

World Rugby needs to ask itself if that is the sort of game they wish to portray to the world.
Unsatisfactory to the Wallabies.
Unsatisfactory to the Pumas.
Unsatisfactory to the fans in the stadium.
Unsatisfactory to Aussie fans at home.
Unsatisfactory to Argie fans at home.
Unsatisfactory to the world of rugby.

And what is it with the bloody scrum? If they want to remove the scrum let them try to get a rule change accepted. May as well watch mungo the way that went.

 

[barbarian]

I'd be more sympathetic to Phipps if we had a penalty at the time. But we didn't. It was a scrum. So the medic could have kicked the ball into the second tier of the stand and it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference.

The penalty against him was entirely justified, it was a very stupid thing to do.

Interestingly, when the broadcast cut to the coaches box a few minutes later (after we got a penalty in front of Argie posts), and Cheika clearly said 'can someone tell Nick Phipps to shut his mouth and play footy'.

Phipps to me played like a bloke who had been sitting on the bench for two straight months, and was trying to make a million things happen while he was on the park. Did throw a lovely ball to put Allan A through a hole, though.
.

 

[Joe Blow]

Yes, Timani was solid. No big runs or particularly big hits but he topped the tackle count with no misses, slipped into the row without a problem when Coleman was in the bin and linked a few times with the backs.
A solid start for him. The big moments will come.
Houston looked polished for his 10 minutes at the end.

 

[tragic]

I have a feeling Hodge's best position may be at fullback where he use his big boot to effect. DHP is pretty good but Hodge could reach his level soon plus have the point of difference of having the big clearing kick.

I really hope he/coaches pick a position and he sticks with it. Could be 12,13,15.

I've been saying this for a while. He played a lot at FB coming through the ranks.
Good boot, safe under the high ball, solid in contact.
I think a kerevi/ folau midfield with hodge at FB and some pace and finishing on the wing would have vastly more attacking threat than our current lineup.
Izzy isn't featuring at all at FB atm and it's time to move him in.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Interestingly, when the broadcast cut to the coaches box a few minutes later (after we got a penalty in front of Argie posts), and Cheika clearly said 'can someone tell Nick Phipps to shut his mouth and play footy'.
.

That's something I wish Cheika would say to him more often. He and Fardy are the worst offenders out there for gobbing off to the ref and it gets us in trouble.

 

[KOB1987]

I wonder if it's fardy's discipline that's keeping him on the bench. Just out of curiosity and I'm not suggesting it will happen but how do people think the following would function v the ABs::

4. Coleman
5. Mumm
6. Timani
7. Hooper
8. Houston

 

[Twoilms]

I wonder if it's fardy's discipline that's keeping him on the bench. Just out of curiosity and I'm not suggesting it will happen but how do people think the following would function v the ABs::

4. Coleman
5. Mumm
6. Timani
7. Hooper
8. Houston

Let's accept reality and concede that nothing is going to function against the All Blacks. 9 tries to nil in SA ffs. Won't be worth switching on.

 

[TOCC]

For me it wasn't Phipps shove which annoyed me, it was clearly stupid but in the heat of the moment, what annoyed me was the way the Foxsports commentators carried on about it for a few minutes afterwards trying to justify it, and one of them even suggested that next time Phipps should put his shoulder into it more and get the official under the ribs.

Commentators are the salesperson of the game, and right now they are about as good as a greasy used car dealer.

 

[cyclopath]

A pretty good win.
So, where is the team now? Starters mainly that I'm looking at.
1. Sio - yep, scrumming well, can improve a bit more around the park.
2. Moore - yep, has been better past 2 games, skippering with more control too.
3. Kepu - Yep, scrumming well.
4. Arnold - Yep, like the look of him there, some good physicality.
5. Coleman - Yep, has staked a good claim.
6. Mumm - This one's open, he had a good game tonight but Fardy at his best would be good. Chance for others to get a look.
7. Hooper - Yep, had another good game, YC apart
8. Timani - Yep, looked comfortable there (as did Houston for 10mins)
9. Genia - Yep, 1000 times, yep. Has been superb.
10. Cooper - Yep, has to just stay there and will get better and better.
12. Foley - I think yep for now, but if To'omua was fit / available I'd start him. This is somewhat open. If Cooper is goal-kicking in training with good accuracy, then it's more tenuous for Foley, and before someone re-hashes them , I've seen all the stats on the past kicking numbers. I think Cooper / Foley could develop a handy combo in time, but other options might be better. We'll see.
13. Kerevi - Yep - looks better and better. In time will probably make a very good Test 12 in the Nonu mould, but right now is a cracking 13.
11 and 14. DHP and Hodge - Yep for now, but next year we'll have some pretty good wing options so it's wide open. DHP more locked in now.
15. Folau - Yep, despite his lull in form. I am not in the "move him to 13" camp at all.

Benchies?
Bench front row looks less solid than earlier in the year, so that needs work. I think Ala'alatoa is ahead of Robertson in development right now. Hookers - Hanson, Ready, Latu - all decent options, maybe TPN depending upon what happens with him.
Douglas could put some pressure on the other two with some more consistency, Simmons still in the frame too.
Back rowers - Mumm probably a better bench option than Fardy in some ways, but see above. Houston - yes! Get him in and keep him in, really looking forward to seeing him for the Reds next year. Backup 7 - dunno, but will get minimal time with Hooper's minutes.
Phipps - not exactly having a glorious time off the bench, although his passing tonight was crisp, even if his flattening of the medic was not (although the peripheral staff all over the field shit me). Chances for others.
Kuridrani - obviously has been a classy player so well in the frame. In time, maybe Kerevi / Kuridrani in midfield but I still think Kerevi is irresistible at 13 for now.

 

[cyclopath]

For me it wasn't Phipps shove which annoyed me, it was clearly stupid but in the heat of the moment, what annoyed me was the way the Foxsports commentators carried on about it for a few minutes afterwards trying to justify it, and one of them even suggested that next time Phipps should put his shoulder into it more and get the official under the ribs.

Commentators are the salesperson of the game, and right now they are about as good as a greasy used car dealer.

Yeah, that was particularly stupid.

 

[galumay]

Words I never thought I would hear,

"....and Mumm in for the try"!!

Overall I am not sure what to take away from the game, Pumas really missed Isa & Sanchez, but they still managed to dominate territory and possession, especialy in the 2nd half. The Pumas always look one less fumble away from a try - but the fumble always seems to come!

Kerevi was very good, a definite continued improvement from him, Moore does seem to finally have listened to what the whole world was telling him about his captaincy and relationship with refs, Genia was good again, Timani also looked improved. Regardless, it wasnt a convincing win, but discipline meant 20 minutes a man down and maybe thats about the best the playing group can put together.

It wont hurt to put another win under their belt, more so that it was away, and in the NH where they are about to spend a couple of months.

Cant see it being pretty at Eden Park!

 

[tragic]

I'd be happy to run the same tight 5 again. Arnold was quiet though so also wouldn't object if Douglas or Simmons started either.
Mumm hasn't impressed me across the series - he'd be my bench cover.
Would be interested to see timani/ Houston at 6/8 from what I saw last game. Not necessarily starting but with more game time to look at that combo.
Our back line lacks penetration and struggles to score more than two tries against tier 2 sides and one try against tier one. Our lack of pace and finishing is very clear out wide. Teams can easily show us the sideline as they can chase us down with time to spare, or herd us into touch. The wobs are developing the reds ethos of chuck it to kerevi being their only successful attacking play.
I wasn't a fan of folau at 13 but he's offering so little these days at FB and can't kick so he's wasted there. I've come around to trying him at 13 and benching him if he doesn't perform there. 13 would force more involvement and he's strong at shedding tackles in contact.
Kerevi had a great season at 12 for the reds. Kerevi/Folau is as close to nonu/ smith as we've got and we should start developing it now. If it doesn't work sub kuridrani for folau.
Hodge has a lot of similarities to Roger Gould. Give him a crack at 15. Refreshing to have a FB who can kick.
Naivalu on one wing. DHP on the other till we see which other Fijian flyer puts up their hand.
Foley on the bench.
There you have it

 

[Train Without a Station]

Cyclo I disagree Mumm had a good game.

There were no doubt positives. He had a couple of good runs and his maul defence was good. But we also had some scrappy LO ball at times and hardly pressure the Arg throw.

For a 6 his defensive work rate was nowhere near adequate. Being the only forward who played more than 70 you'd think he would top the stats. In fact 4 players made more tackles than Mumm in their 70 minutes or less. Timani made twice as many!

In his 26 minutes Fardy made 1 less tackle than Mumm did all game.

Most importantly, leading up to both Yellow Cards, Mumm made crucial errors that put us under pressure. We then infringed when pressured as a result. Obviously the player is at fault but Mumm was a factor in us being put in that position.

For Hooper's card Mumm was left looking like a statue in D. Hooper then rushes to cover, picking up the man Mumm should have been defending, and takes him high.

The Coleman card was as a result of Arnold being penalised for the same offence phases earlier. That happened after Mumm when supposedly defender the kicker on the 22 was again left looking like a statue, and Argentina tore up the ground. Arnold infringes with in a phase or two of retreating defence, the fact is we should have been receiving the ball in that position had Mumm not switched off.

Douglas could put some pressure on players. But certainly not based on this performance. Came off the bench for 20 minutes. Didn't carry once. Made a single tackle and missed 1 for it. Absolutely woeful impact off the bench and just continues his decline in impact since the first Bledisloe Test.

 

[Simon.]

Kerevi's match stats are astounding:

2 tries, 122m, 6 CBs and 8 DBs from only 8 runs?! What sort of sorcery is this?

Even Beauden Barrett, in a thoroughly dominant team with 70% possession, couldn't match those stats. He got 124m in 20 runs with 3 CBs and 7 DBs.

Easily a 9 on GAGR's Patented Ratings Guide, with arguments possibly able to be made for a 10.

I don't know who's doing the player ratings this week, but there's some food for thought for you!

 

[KOB1987]

TWAS, I know you've never been a fan of Mumm in any capacity but at least he managed to score the match-sealing try. Fardy bombed a certain one by diving over a ruck there were no defenders at, I'll concede that it was inconsequential and should have been let go but it's just the sort of dumb shit he's renowned for giving away a penalty for.

Anyway, for the record I'm not particularly a fan of Mumm at 6 either and I'll solve the problem by proposing that we play Timani at 6 and Houston at 8. The problem then comes back to the second rowers again..who is the best option to partner Coleman as a starter and who has the biggest impact off the bench?

Made tackles, missed tackles, carries and metres made are all part of the run of the mill stats that get published but are only half the story, I'll reserve any opinions until we see ForceFans' ruck stats. But Mumm certainly seemed to be involved a lot at face value.

 

[Brumby Runner]

There are 9 first season wallabies in this side tonight. I think that puts to bed any notion that we aren't blooding new players. It's irrelevant that some are due to injury, attrition is providing an opportunity to inject new blood and it's being taken.

And they are?

Maybe Ala'alatoa, Robertson, Arnold, Coleman, Timani, Houston, Kerevi, Hodge, DHP? Bit early to call Timani and Houston as successes, but all of the others are. If many of the conservative posters on this site had their way, some, maybe most, wouldn't have got a start because there were too many debutants. I think the story is the other way round. The newbies are the tear away successes along with Hooper and Genia. It is the others like Moore, Simmons, Fardy, Foley and Kuridrani who have question marks over them.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I think he tackles around the chest to try and win the collision and stop the offload. Your'e right though Quade has been carded and penalised for high tackles too many times for his tackling style to not be addressed

I think it's also his inyention to strip the ball if he's able, and he did do that at least once in this game.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Did not really notice much of Timani - not really been convinced he is long term 8.

Really disagree with you about Timani RN. He tackled ferociously and was everywhere in defense. I'd be surprised and bewildered if he hasn't topped the defense stats today. And he also carried strongly in attack. I am satisfied we have found our No 8 solutions in Timani and Houston pending Holloways elevation. For good measure, having a proper No 8 in the side allowed Hooper to play as a No 7, competing at the breakdown and winning turnover ball. Big win for the Wallabies structure imo.