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RC5: Springbokke vs Wallabies @ PE

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Bobby Sands

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To'omua is obviously better than Foley.

All of this has come about because Cheika, and all sane rugb observers, have lost total faith in Bernard. He is not a championship winning 10. So what do you do? You throw sand at the wall, and find the wet stuff.

KB (Kurtley Beale) as good as he has been at 12 is still a complete liability defensively. MT is a brick wall.

In an ideal world KB (Kurtley Beale) at 10 would have worked, and that would be better for our structure. However MT at 10 defending like Jonny Wilkinson and distributing to Kurtley can work too.

DHP needs to stay at 15, and Cheik all but confirmed that. So Izzy back on a wing, even though I don't mind mind the idea od him at 13. Tevita/Samu at 13. The other wing spot is up in the air, and Genia at 9.

So we pretty much know our WC backline other than 10 and one wing.

What we do know is our 10 won't be Foley, so we are trying to work out what that inside back combo will look like.
 

Derpus

Jason Little (69)
Not really.
Foleys weaknesses at 10 have been there for all to see this series.
Beale is a much better 12 than he was a few years ago. It was not unreasonable to see if the same applied to his play at 10. Clearly that question has been answered.
Now it’s time to try To'omua. Or another plan B.
The series is gone. We know what foley brings to the table.
Cheika is in a difficult position with few options. And he’s running out of time to find a solution.
He improved at 12 after playing 12 for abot 3 to 4 years straight, with a tiny bit of fullback thrown in.

When the Tahs had to rely on him on the odd occasion at 10, he was bad.

Square peg, round hole.

To'omua is also a better 12 than 10. Foley is our best 10, though this seems essentially impossible for anyone to admit.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
In an ideal world KB (Kurtley Beale) at 10 would have worked, and that would be better for our structure. However MT at 10 defending like Jonny Wilkinson and distributing to Kurtley can work too.
.


I think the problem with this is the assumption that we can just change a few numbers on backs and this will all start to work like clockwork.

Beale, Foley and (shock) To'omua are all decent players with limitations. The number on their back may help a little bit with how those limitations are managed, but it won't turn them into world-beaters.

It seems these three will all be either in the XV or on the bench as we approach the World Cup.

I think all three are good players, and hope we can find a scheme that brings out their talents in the best possible way. I think that's the best we can hope for right now.
.
 

Tomikin

Simon Poidevin (60)
He improved at 12 after playing 12 for abot 3 to 4 years straight, with a tiny bit of fullback thrown in.

When the Tahs had to rely on him on the odd occasion at 10, he was bad.

Square peg, round hole.

To'omua is also a better 12 than 10. Foley is our best 10, though this seems essentially impossible for anyone to admit.
Really To'omua played 10 much of his career and only move to fit outside Quade and the year he got injuried and Leailifanio came to 10 and had a blinder.

To'omua at 10 is really good at everything, but then leading the defensive line really helps, they all come off his shoulder quickly, you loose that when he plays 12.
 

Tomikin

Simon Poidevin (60)
Read today that it looks like Beale 10 To'omua 12 .. sigh

P.S. one of the reasons Koroibete is straggling with his defensive re-alignment is that TK and probably Kervi always spoke to him in Fijian, its why he was rubbish for the rebels good for the wallabies and now why his gone backwards again now.

I'm sure his getting better, but that comfort inside must help when not knowing the defensive reads 100 percent.
 

Joe Blow

Peter Sullivan (51)
KBs problem at 10 is that his space is limited and he is under more pressure to direct play. Because of this his option talking has been very poor.
He invariably runs sideways and is panicked, often passing to people in a worse position than him or taking on the line, which he does far too often.
He is not a test 10. At schoolboy level he was so superior that he could almost have played anywhere in the back 10.
To'omua is a pretty decent 10 as is Foley.
Foley, Beale and Folau have built up a very effective attacking combination at 10, 12 and 15 which probably should not be messed with too much. Problem is that To'omua has test player stamped all over him and he can only really be considered at 10 or 12. Its not such a bad problem to have but shifting Beale around could be counter productive being that he is such a confidence player.
 

Up the Guts

Steve Williams (59)
What we do know is our 10 won't be Foley, so we are trying to work out what that inside back combo will look like.

Do we know this? If Beale's too much of defensive liability at 12 and he's clearly not a test standard 10 then why isn't 10. Foley 12. To'omua the combination we'd go with?
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
To'omua at 10 is really good at everything, but then leading the defensive line really helps, they all come off his shoulder quickly, you loose that when he plays 12.


I disagree he's 'really good at everything'. He's a decent 10 but I don't think he's a great organiser in attack and he has never been as able to single-handedly create things like Foley.

I love the way he plays but let's not make him seem like the saviour of our backline.
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Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
He improved at 12 after playing 12 for abot 3 to 4 years straight, with a tiny bit of fullback thrown in.

When the Tahs had to rely on him on the odd occasion at 10, he was bad.

Square peg, round hole.

To'omua is also a better 12 than 10. Foley is our best 10, though this seems essentially impossible for anyone to admit.

Not so, Derpus. Practically all the rusted on Tahs' supporters here will tell you til they're blue in the face that Foley is the best and only No 10 in the country. Fortunately, there are many more supporters from elsewhere who see through the bias and it appears that the truth is slowly dawning on Cheika as well.

ATM we would be better served with To'omua at 10 and Foley on the bench. To'omua is a better all round footballer than Foley. And then it needs to be persevered with until new combinations are bedded in giving the players opportunity to bring out their best. Same goes for a couple of spots in the forwards, but that is another topic.
 

Joe Blow

Peter Sullivan (51)
Whoever he picks most here will be behind them. Cheika obviously sees something in the Beale/To'omua inside back combo that many cannot. I hope he is right.
Once again, no matter who trots out from 10-15 will not succeed without good front foot ball. Hoping he gets the forwards right and they are primed for a big performance.
 

Derpus

Jason Little (69)
To'omua is obviously better than Foley.

All of this has come about because Cheika, and all sane rugb observers, have lost total faith in Bernard. He is not a championship winning 10. So what do you do? You throw sand at the wall, and find the wet stuff.

KB (Kurtley Beale) as good as he has been at 12 is still a complete liability defensively. MT is a brick wall.

In an ideal world KB (Kurtley Beale) at 10 would have worked, and that would be better for our structure. However MT at 10 defending like Jonny Wilkinson and distributing to Kurtley can work too.

DHP needs to stay at 15, and Cheik all but confirmed that. So Izzy back on a wing, even though I don't mind mind the idea od him at 13. Tevita/Samu at 13. The other wing spot is up in the air, and Genia at 9.

So we pretty much know our WC backline other than 10 and one wing.

What we do know is our 10 won't be Foley, so we are trying to work out what that inside back combo will look like.
No, no you don't. You play your best player available. We haven't lost a single game because our 10 has been poor except perhaps the Argentina game in which Bernard barely featured (and nearly saved anyway if Folau hadn't of bottled it).

But eh, guess you can only lead a horse to water aye Sandy? can't force them to drink.

P.S. it was curious to see Samu make that run down the wing after your learned self, through much endeavor, assured all of us ignoramuses that he absolutely would not be seagulling or playing a role similar to Hooper.
 

Derpus

Jason Little (69)
Not so, Derpus. Practically all the rusted on Tahs' supporters here will tell you til they're blue in the face that Foley is the best and only No 10 in the country. Fortunately, there are many more supporters from elsewhere who see through the bias and it appears that the truth is slowly dawning on Cheika as well.

ATM we would be better served with To'omua at 10 and Foley on the bench. To'omua is a better all round footballer than Foley. And then it needs to be persevered with until new combinations are bedded in giving the players opportunity to bring out their best. Same goes for a couple of spots in the forwards, but that is another topic.
To'omua is not better, hasn't played 10 in ages, has done nothing particularly impressive at all for the Wallabies this year but score a giveaway try.

But hey i'm sure he'll be the next player thrown into 10 despite being a worse option and probably better suited to 12. He'll then proceed to do exactly what KB (Kurtley Beale) did and play poorly.

And you'll continue to deny Foley is the best option and find some other supposedly superior player who needs to be thrown straight in at 10. Hell we haven't tried Quade again this year.

Edit: only two Tahs starting in the loss to Argentina. Such selection bias is so crippling to our chances of ever succeeding. Damn Cheika and his favourites.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Whatever Derpus. Take off the blue goggles mate.

There are only two schools of thought on this issue - you're either a Foley fan, or you don't support the Waratahs.

It's just that simple.
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Tomikin

Simon Poidevin (60)
To'omua is not better, hasn't played 10 in ages, has done nothing particularly impressive at all for the Wallabies this year but score a giveaway try.

But hey i'm sure he'll be the next player thrown into 10 despite being a worse option and probably better suited to 12. He'll then proceed to do exactly what KB (Kurtley Beale) did and play poorly.

And you'll continue to deny Foley is the best option and find some other supposedly superior player who needs to be thrown straight in at 10. Hell we haven't tried Quade again this year.

Edit: only two Tahs starting in the loss to Argentina. Such selection bias is so crippling to our chances of ever succeeding. Damn Cheika and his favourites.
I would be happy to go Foley 10 To'omua 12 and Beale super sub, and with Beale on the bench we could play a 6 - 2, I think this would be our best combo.

At the back though, I'd be looking to swap out Koroibete for the second fullback either Banks or Maddox, Koro should be in a straight shoot out with Izzy for the non kicking winger.
 

tragic

John Solomon (38)
Foley is our best 10, though this seems essentially impossible for anyone to admit.

You might be right.
But his game has so many flaws we need to be open to other options.
And this series is the perfect opportunity to explore them.
If all other options come up short then we know what foley brings.
 
B

Bobby Sands

Guest
I think the problem with this is the assumption that we can just change a few numbers on backs and this will all start to work like clockwork.

Beale, Foley and (shock) To'omua are all decent players with limitations. The number on their back may help a little bit with how those limitations are managed, but it won't turn them into world-beaters.

It seems these three will all be either in the XV or on the bench as we approach the World Cup.

I think all three are good players, and hope we can find a scheme that brings out their talents in the best possible way. I think that's the best we can hope for right now.
.

The bloke who receives the ball from the 9 most, regardless of the number, is pretty bloody important mate.

If its Foley, KB (Kurtley Beale), or To'omua it changes the lines of attack for all players outside of them, and how he organises forward runners etc. Some players turn the ball inside alot more naturally than others.
 
B

Bobby Sands

Guest
Do we know this? If Beale's too much of defensive liability at 12 and he's clearly not a test standard 10 then why isn't 10. Foley 12. To'omua the combination we'd go with?

We know this because KB (Kurtley Beale) has to be in the team, and Cheik is reluctant to move DHP from 15. So he would need to play on a wing.
 
B

Bobby Sands

Guest
No, no you don't. You play your best player available. We haven't lost a single game because our 10 has been poor except perhaps the Argentina game in which Bernard barely featured (and nearly saved anyway if Folau hadn't of bottled it).

But eh, guess you can only lead a horse to water aye Sandy? can't force them to drink.

P.S. it was curious to see Samu make that run down the wing after your learned self, through much endeavor, assured all of us ignoramuses that he absolutely would not be seagulling or playing a role similar to Hooper.

Derp, get a job.

Again, you are the only person who I disregarded their opinion. No-one else.

I am certain others feel the same, even if they do not wish to be openly antagonistic.

You are like an abusive father who's son is on scholarship at a 14A's Joeys match.
 
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