Rd 1 SRA 2021 Queensland Reds v NSFW Waratahs

[Dctarget]

It is fairly astounding. If they were NZers I would have maybe 7 of them as next cabs off the rank after Retallick and Whitelock.

Plus just saw the Hockings kid wreak unholy havoc for Suntory, biff him in there too ffs

Does NZ lose a lot of locks north? Not many come to mind. I know Thrush is playing for the WF and frankly you can have him back.

 

[Pfitzy]

Plus just saw the Hockings kid wreak unholy havoc for Suntory, biff him in there too ffs

Probably less about Hockings than Suntory fielding a backline bigger than the opposing forward pack.

Having said that, I thought their most effective back was the 12, who as a Japanese chap wasn't as big as either Li or Kerevi...

 

[Pfitzy]

Surely Waratahs' lock problems are the same as Australia's. They don't develop them over in France and the UK as well as we do. We have something like 10 arguably Wallabies locks playing in the NH: Skelton, Arnold x 2, Rodda, Philip, Coleman, Simmons, L. Jones, Douglas, Meafou.

No other position has been pillaged like that, of course we'd be struggling to have good locks back here. All teams are.

We don't pay our tight five forwards well enough, because we don't value them like they do up north. That explains a few of them going, and once they get there they might even get paid more to put on weight, and spend less time running around in Super Rugby fashion. That's the gap.

Throw in COVID and you're creating a chasm.

 

[Forcefield]

Yeah, development isnt the issue being broke AF is.

I think seeing money as the solution is the same thinking that created the problem in the first place. The Brumbies recruit and retain incredibly well it's not like they are rolling in money.

Develop enough guys and some are bound to want to stay for whatever reason despite the big money on offer elsewhere.

 

[Adam84]

Surely Waratahs' lock problems are the same as Australia's. They don't develop them over in France and the UK as well as we do. We have something like 10 arguably Wallabies locks playing in the NH: Skelton, Arnold x 2, Rodda, Philip, Coleman, Simmons, L. Jones, Douglas, Meafou.

No other position has been pillaged like that, of course we'd be struggling to have good locks back here. All teams are.

Who was the last lock that the Tahs actually invested in and developed though? Skelton?
The pillaging of the second rowers from Europe has been occurring for years, hence why other Australian teams have invested heavily in developing players in this position. NSW completely dropped the ball and went for quick fixes by recruiting journeymen from interstate and overseas rather then identifying and developing their own.

Guys like Frost, Rodda and LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) were NSW players who were picked up in development squads for other states. In the same period development locks like Hosea, Hockings, Swain and Uru have emerged at other teams.

 

[Derpus]

I think seeing money as the solution is the same thinking that created the problem in the first place. The Brumbies recruit and retain incredibly well it's not like they are rolling in money.

Develop enough guys and some are bound to want to stay for whatever reason despite the big money on offer elsewhere.

Well - i don't see money as the solution. I see it as the problem. You think we can retain all our best players for the feel good vibes at our club when there's cold hard cash in Europe? nah.

I also don't think we can take the NZ approach of just flooding the market with enough quality players that at least a few stick around, because NRL and AFL exist and the games popularity is waning.

Club seemingly has a wide variety of issues, but being broke is definitely the main one.

 

[Forcefield]

All I am saying is that for minimal expense we could improve what we already do by being a bit more strategic. It should increase depth. It might decrease attrition. No team can retain all its best players, and we might not be able to match NZ, but we can always do better.

This isn't about having a crack at the Waratahs. I reckon it must be super frustrating for you to see locally-developed, talented locks at other franchises (just as I feel about you guys with Tizzano in your pocket). All teams could do with having more second row depth. Lord knows I would like an alternative to Thrush.

 

[Adam84]

Well - i don't see money as the solution. I see it as the problem. You think we can retain all our best players for the feel good vibes at our club when there's cold hard cash in Europe? nah.

I also don't think we can take the NZ approach of just flooding the market with enough quality players that at least a few stick around, because NRL and AFL exist and the games popularity is waning.

Club seemingly has a wide variety of issues, but being broke is definitely the main one.

I actually think the poor development pathways that the Tahs have had the past 5 years preceding 2020 is the biggest issue, and that is now compounded by not having extra money to recruit external players to fill the cracks.

Way I see it is that the Tahs are where the Reds were at in 2018, the players now will be the core group for a few years, and management and just need to focus on the Shute Shield pathway and promoting growth that way. There can’t be any quick fixes or marquee signings

 

[PhilClinton]

Getting a bit off topic here, but with regards to locks, height is obviously something you can’t teach and the NRL and AFL aren’t the only guys poaching these types of players.

Currently there are 170 Australians (probably more but at least 170 of note) playing basketball at American colleges. Majority of these guys are 6ft 6 or taller. I tried to get some stats for earlier years and it was hard to come by but it seems like the current figures are way higher than say 10 years ago. 170 may not sound like a lot, but if even 10% of those guys were decent at rugby it’s 17 tall timbers, more than enough to pad out the Aussie Super Rugby franchises.

Anyway getting a bit long winded there but my point being rugby is one of the few contact sports were genuine size and height is needed for a key position, and there are other bigger market sports with a closer eye on that talent.

 

[Forcefield]

See that is where I reckon we could get more creative. A lock in rugby doesn't need the same athleticism that an AFL or basketball player needs, but it certainly doesn't hurt. It couldn't hurt to try scouting out a few guys who might not be able to push on in AFL or basketball in their early 20s who'd be willing to try rugby. I know they are starting the sport later but second rowers, like front rowers, generally hit their peak in their late 20s to early 30s so there might be time.

Approach Stan- make a reality tv show out of the hunt for a lock. I'd call it Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.

Better than doing nothing.

 

[Hawko]

Surely Waratahs' lock problems are the same as Australia's. They don't develop them over in France and the UK as well as we do. We have something like 10 arguably Wallabies locks playing in the NH: Skelton, Arnold x 2, Rodda, Philip, Coleman, Simmons, L. Jones, Douglas, Meafou.

No other position has been pillaged like that, of course we'd be struggling to have good locks back here. All teams are.

Why is that? Because in Europe the highest paid players are the locks. Here they get paid less than the reserve outside backs. So of course any lock that is any good is going overseas. Who wants to finish their rugby career with peanuts and then have to start another career at least 5 years behind everyone else!

 

[Derpus]

Why is that? Because in Europe the highest paid players are the locks. Here they get paid less than the reserve outside backs. So of course any lock that is any good is going overseas. Who wants to finish their rugby career with peanuts and then have to start another career at least 5 years behind everyone else!

This appears to actually be true (at least the part about locks getting paid a buttload in Europe):

I think outside backs are worth a fair chunk though. True pace and finishing ability are almost as rare as height.

 

[Hawko]

Felt sorry for the 'tahs, jeez they were actually really disappointing. They've got the cattle, I am unconvinced Rennie is the man to bring them along. A very quiet night from Harrison whom I rate highly, but you cannot do much when your pack is being munted. Gordon and Tizzano head and shoulders above everyone. I like Harris but I reckon he will be stuck behind Harry for a long time.

Harris who? Do you mean the bloke who was replaced by Sinclair. I didn't even see him leave the field, he was that anonymous and I doubt that he actually touched the ball at all. If he is in the 22 next Saturday it will only be because there is no one else left standing. The players stuck behind Harry are playing for the Brumbies, Rebels and Force; them you can feel sorry for.

 

[The Nomad]

I think with regards to competition for talent within Australia, the up and coming outside backs are always going to be a potential target for the RL talent scouts and this creates a bit of extra hype around signing these guys.

Dare say RL wouldn't be looking too closely at our up and coming locks. AFL might have a look, but they already have plenty to choose from and it's a different skill set that would be quite hard to pick up "late" in your development.

The difference now is professional club money OS and just how many markets there are. They all need locks.

 

[gel]

A just and rightful result.

 

[Pfitzy]

This appears to actually be true (at least the part about locks getting paid a buttload in Europe):


I think outside backs are worth a fair chunk though. True pace and finishing ability are almost as rare as height.

I don't think there would be a lot of difference between those numbers at the top end - but I think if you looked at our guys the numbers 9-15 would be ahead of 1-5 on average since professionalism started.

Particularly in Australia where centres and back three are transferable to league and can use that as a milking stool.

 

[Sully]

You only need to look at Australia's leading earner and see where that position sits in that table to see our priorities are out of wack.

 

[Derpus]

It's interesting 7's aren't worth much and they are basically our specialist position.

 

[TSR]

Harris who? Do you mean the bloke who was replaced by Sinclair. I didn't even see him leave the field, he was that anonymous and I doubt that he actually touched the ball at all. If he is in the 22 next Saturday it will only be because there is no one else left standing. The players stuck behind Harry are playing for the Brumbies, Rebels and Force; them you can feel sorry for.

Well I can remember him playing. I thought he did some good things without being outstanding.

Maybe you just weren’t watching that close.

 

[The Grey Man]

This appears to actually be true (at least the part about locks getting paid a buttload in Europe):

I think outside backs are worth a fair chunk though. True pace and finishing ability are almost as rare as height.

Surprised to see hookers and open side flankers so low on the list, given how many of these end up as Team Captains, and how much impact they have on the game. If you can not win your own lineout or scrum ball, or grab a try off the back of a rolling maul (Hooker) or make tackles, slow down opposition breakdowns, or make pilfers or force turnover penalties (Flanker), a team will struggle to win a game.