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Reds 2020

Strewthcobber

Mark Ella (57)
Stats are history. No card to be played.


Can I change my card to McQueen wasn't the Brumbies coach in 98 & 99? And he made the final in year 2

(there's that ancient history!)

Anyway, my theory isn't that good coaches will automatically win in year 1 and 2. It's that there's probably not much point expecting too much from a coach with that particular team if they haven't had some pretty immediate success
 

Strewthcobber

Mark Ella (57)
Counting it up, I have

5 coaches first winning in their first year
5 first winning in their second

Eddie Jones made gf in 3rd and won in 4th
Meyer SF in 2 & 3 and won in 4th

And Jamie Joseph the big outlier who won in his 5th year. There is still hope!

To put it another way, just once in 24 seasons has a team won with a coach who hadn't at least made semi-finals by year 3 in the role
 

Roberts Rugby

John Solomon (38)
Would have keeping Cooper, Slipper and Hunt made a difference to the past 2 years’ results? Is the philosophy of building a culture having the desired results? Will the results come in the next 3 years with our young team having more experience in their current contracts? Are we seeing any improvements in results since Thorny took over?
 

dru

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Would have keeping Cooper, Slipper and Hunt made a difference to the past 2 years’ results? Is the philosophy of building a culture having the desired results? Will the results come in the next 3 years with our young team having more experience in their current contracts? Are we seeing any improvements in results since Thorny took over?

With the right coach almost certainly.
 

TSR

Geoff Shaw (53)
I am reminded of the quote (from Ian Chappel if I recall correctly) - show me a successful test captain and I’ll show you a captain with at least two great bowlers. I don’t mean that to discard the importance of quality coaching - but even the best coaching can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

I have no problems with the criticism leveled at the QRU admin over the years - their decision making has been truly lamentable.

Nor do I take issue with the question of Thorn as being capable of being a Championship winning head coach.

However I will make a couple of observations -
- to my understanding, Thorn has never proclaimed himself to be the messiah. His mantra when he took over and ever since was that the Reds were a basket case and needed a complete upheaval and he made the decision that he would rather take that on then just keep being a silent party to the ongoing crap
- from what I understand the Reds training culture was extremely poor and the players were regularly drinking mid week. A number of the players who have departed were central to that culture. Based on other posts I have read on here, I have taken that to be true
- I have also been told by a source I believe that the Reds playing group was well very split along senior/junior lines with the junior players largely ignored by the senior playing group. The culture was very much one of self-entitlement
- I am not sure about this year, but I am aware that at the start of last year Thorn told at least one group of stakeholders that any lofty expectations were premature as the playing group simply didn’t have the experience or depth to compete at the level required. At the same time he was pushing the players not to use their age as an excuse. His explanation was that stripping out all the experience was regretable but necessary
- Thorn has bought back Mackay and bought in Ryan & Alred. He has placed enormous value in rebuilding our development pathways.

My stance is that Thorn is clearly willing to put longer term viability ahead of short term success (which is almost completely counter-intuitive to a head coach trying to preserve his job)

I understand all the frustration on here - i really do. And I agree with a lot of it. I have several very specific concerns about the Reds performance on the weekend and the implications for the rest of the season. Unless the Reds can turn around our lineout and maul straight away it isn’t hard to see how teams will target us.

But I do still think the appointment of Thorn has been a massive plus and, if rugby is to be turned around at all (which is by no means assured) Thorns influence has been paramount and I personally am both prepared to give him credit for that and some slack.

And, for what it’s worth, I do think we have improved. But we are coming off a low base and it is yet to be demonstrated that we’ve improved enough to drag our results up to a level which can be deemed satisfactory.
 

Brumby Runner

Tim Horan (67)
There were two or three lineouts where Harry Hockings won the jump but failed to control the ball. Is that a worry, or just a bit of mistiming after coming back from injury?
 

Penguin

John Solomon (38)
There were two or three lineouts where Harry Hockings won the jump but failed to control the ball. Is that a worry, or just a bit of mistiming after coming back from injury?

I thought his presence and LSLs absence made a difference in the lineouts lack of cohesion. Could just be a bit off timing with lack of game time though.
 

molman

Bob Davidson (42)
My stance is that Thorn is clearly willing to put longer term viability ahead of short term success (which is almost completely counter-intuitive to a head coach trying to preserve his job)


I think the challenge for the Reds/QRU is that all that you've said might be true but if the internal improvements don't transfer to obvious external gains you have a real problem of perception. Perhaps it's more a question of how they are handling the narrative in bringing the fans along, because the average Joe doesn't see any of those changes you alluded to.




I get the impression that some work has been done to set expectations by seeding the media with articles about the average age/number of caps in the team and other such subtle reminders of where this team is at. Irrespective maybe they just need to be more open and honest in owning certain elements and targets. What is 'their' pass mark this year?




For me, I agree, I do think they are improving but not in a consistent manner which is worrying.




I have actually wondered if cultural and structural changes were needed could it have been achieved without Thorn being HC. 




Some other clubs abroad have a much more Manager/HC setup or Director of Rugby and other such roles. Perhaps someone else should have been handling game day whilst Thorn focused on those various other elements. I can see Thorn functioning well managing the youth pathways and other such elements that will setup the club for the future. Ultimately I do wonder if he's the man to be deciding the strategies and approach to overcoming certain opposition.

The Crusaders game this coming weekend is going to be a good test of both the character and technical aptitude of the team. I really hope I'm surprised.
 

Wilson

Jim Lenehan (48)
Counting it up, I have

5 coaches first winning in their first year
5 first winning in their second

Eddie Jones made gf in 3rd and won in 4th
Meyer SF in 2 & 3 and won in 4th

And Jamie Joseph the big outlier who won in his 5th year. There is still hope!

To put it another way, just once in 24 seasons has a team won with a coach who hadn't at least made semi-finals by year 3 in the role

How many were given more than 3 years without winning/making the finals though? I can't think of anyone other than Joseph who had that much time time in the role before delivering success.
 

Jeeper

Jimmy Flynn (14)
There were two or three lineouts where Harry Hockings won the jump but failed to control the ball. Is that a worry, or just a bit of mistiming after coming back from injury?

I am not concerned about this, it may have just been nerves. Hockings has displayed some freakish ball handling skills in QPR. A few more games in the top grade and he will hit his straps. I certainly rate him above Blyth (I am a fan of Blyth also).
 

Dctarget

Steve Williams (59)
I am not concerned about this, it may have just been nerves. Hockings has displayed some freakish ball handling skills in QPR. A few more games in the top grade and he will hit his straps. I certainly rate him above Blyth (I am a fan of Blyth also).

Good to hear a more learned opinion than mine which is just based on Reds games. I'm still waiting to see what the fuss is about with Harry but happy to give him time.
 

Bobby Sands

Banned
I know Harry will make it, but he’s not ready to go just yet. We have the two best second rows in Australia, why don’t we play them and let Blythe and Hockings learn and earn a few minutes alternating on the bench.

Wilson needs a rest, ASY into 8, Fraser to start.

If JOC not ready, play Hegarty at 10.

Back on the horse.
 

The Nomad

Colin Windon (37)
Would be very surprised if Wilson isn’t forced to have a rest . He didn’t look great straight after on the sidelines.

Lineouts aside , think the scrum looks stronger with Rodda and LSL as locks , sometimes we forget how important the roll of the locks is come scrum time .

No doubt HH and Blythe will get there in time , maybe just a bit more meat on the bones would help.
 

Jimmy_Crouch

Alan Cameron (40)
Would be very surprised if Wilson isn’t forced to have a rest . He didn’t look great straight after on the sidelines.


Luckily it was close to the sideline and the trainer was there quick smart (before he tried to get up) otherwise he would have tried to get up and keep going. I'd be very surprised if he played with a short turn around this week.
 

dru

Nick Farr-Jones (63)

I have actually wondered if cultural and structural changes were needed could it have been achieved without Thorn being HC. 




Some other clubs abroad have a much more Manager/HC setup or Director of Rugby and other such roles. Perhaps someone else should have been handling game day whilst Thorn focused on those various other elements. I can see Thorn functioning well managing the youth pathways and other such elements that will setup the club for the future. Ultimately I do wonder if he's the man to be deciding the strategies and approach to overcoming certain opposition.

No doubt management will look into it. It seems a bit odd at first but perhaps Thorn would fit well in the Director of Rugby role. He gets his chance first at the HC thing though.
 

Bobby Sands

Banned
No doubt management will look into it. It seems a bit odd at first but perhaps Thorn would fit well in the Director of Rugby role. He gets his chance first at the HC thing though.

If he is not head coach, I’d hate to lose him.

Think he adds plenty to the organisation, which I think you also appreciate too.
 

dru

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
If he is not head coach, I’d hate to lose him.

Think he adds plenty to the organisation, which I think you also appreciate too.

Yeah I do. I'll never get over the starting debacle, but he has his values for sure. Values that can provide serious strength to a pro rugby club. We are on this horse now. Ride it. Hard.
 
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