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Reds v Sharks, Rnd 5 2020, Lang Park Sat 29 7:15 EDST

Derpus

David Wilson (68)
We seem to have all fallen into or for some kind of rugby lullaby that says that having a "young and talented team" is intrinsically A Good Thing that will somehow go into a special astrological circuit of the moon and inexorably come out a top pro team...one day, just be patient.

No. Pro Rugby Success and Team Excellence Creation Does Not Work Like That. If there is not an excellent-enough coaching and skills development infrastructure around good young players all that will happen over time is that:

- (a) most 'talented players' skills will stay at the upper amateur level and not fast evolve enough​
- (b) crucial team capabilities like maul defence, line out, ruck skills (defence and offence), genuine ensemble attack patterns, forwards' pod work, etc will never evolve fast enough to defeat more matured and better coached and whole-team-skilled-up teams​
- (c) the consequence of the defects and too-slow development in the above areas will magnify into poor composure on the field the moment serious adversity hits and in turn increasing loss-making individual and team error rates 'that can't be easily explained' and​
- (d) the virtuous inner team circles of self-confidence built through winning and sustained patterns of dominance will never occur and the team will stagnate into one where 'terrific moments' and 'we dominated for 20 minutes' will be the only tainted prizes and will never be enough to propel the team into consistent victory patterns.​
Yeah, every fucken year we hear about how talented the young Reds side is and how the Wallabies are going to be chock full of Reds - and every fucken year they have a win rate of about 20%.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Alred is a myth, Jonny was Jonny.

Really so? Why then did J Sexton and G Ford recently retain him as kicking coach?

(As an aside, he's also quite highly regarded in golf swing coaching btw, has coached amongst others Molinari in this area of the game.)
 
B

Bobby Sands

Guest
Really so? Why then did J Sexton and G Ford recently retain him as kicking coach?

(As an aside, he's also quite highly regarded in golf swing coaching btw, has coached amongst others Molinari in this area of the game.)

Jock Campbell makes the worst ball contact I can remember of a professional footballer.

Not sure what he is teaching him.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Jock Campbell makes the worst ball contact I can remember of a professional footballer.

Not sure what he is teaching him.

Now all that I agree with - if Alred is still actively involved, does anyone know?

To your point I just cannot fathom why Campbell is being consistently picked as lead place kicker.

Last night there was a scoreline period when it looked as though Campbell's wayward boot may end up singlefootedly losing the Reds the match. And it's not as if this situation was not foreshadowed by his previous poor % place kicking record in recent games.

Why on earth?
 

Serge

Ted Fahey (11)
Best of a bad lot?

That's why many of us suggested having Hegarty in the 23. If the game was close and you needed a steady hand and high percentage goal kicking - you have the option. You don't have Hegarty in the 23 and you have significantly reduced your options. Poor selection decision which again many of us commented on this thread before the match.
 

Zero_Cool

Arch Winning (36)
I guess those calling for Hegarty were wrong though, kicking wasn't the margin, let along second half kicking. We had pretty close to our best attacking side on the field and we weren't close enough that kicking mattered. IMO I'd rather we develop our players than win a game on the back of kicking (that is kicking proving the point of difference). So if we aren't close enough for kicking to matter then I'd rather we develop our young players... and that we did.
 

PhilClinton

Jim Lenehan (48)
Hergarty is 27 and Campbell is 24 so age wise they are very similar. Although yes from a development point of view Campbell has played many less games.
 

cyclopath

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Staff member
From what I've seen of the Reds in recent weeks, there is plenty to be optimistic and excited about for the next few years. I'm sceptical that Thorn will be the guy to get the best out of them, although there are some positive signs coming through. I suspect the next coach will reap the rewards.
 

Finsbury Girl

Trevor Allan (34)
Well that was extremely disappointing.

I hate saying we're not far off but we aren't. But we are so close again to another season write off and another oh well we'll get better next year.

Baffling how our lineout and maul defence are so bad.

But we are getting good combos, I hope the boys are learning.

We have time to turn it around & really push on but it's must win every game from here.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Was going to say we're looking like the 2010 Reds all over again..

We just need the tactical nous to be a championship side!

Interesting - that year (Link's first) the Reds won 8 games out of 13 played. 5th in the final comp ladder, just outside the final 4.

They beat the Crusaders, Bulls and Stormers at home and those latter 2 wins were breakthroughs of a sort as these 2 teams were in the GF in SA.

And just to show what has happened to Reds' crowds since: the crowd figures for the two Bulls and Stormers games at Suncorp were respectively 26,669 and 30,259 (from SANZAR's Wiki entries).
 
B

Bobby Sands

Guest
The line out, maul, maul defence are not not up to scratch. The scrum also got fisted.

Surely this is Thorns remit? I really like him, but surely his teams are good at set-piece?

We should win 90+% of our own line out ball and 100% of our own scrums.

Losing two tight heads in a row is a god damn disgrace and went a long way to losing the game.

We couldn’t win our line out or scrum? You can’t win if you can’t do that.
 
B

Bobby Sands

Guest
Yeah, every fucken year we hear about how talented the young Reds side is and how the Wallabies are going to be chock full of Reds - and every fucken year they have a win rate of about 20%.

Sorry we let you down mate. What are you doing to help? It surely isn’t watching rugby, or god forbid going to games. So think about your own contribution, if any, to oz rugby beyond trash posting on forums.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
The line out, maul, maul defence are not not up to scratch. The scrum also got fisted.

Surely this is Thorns remit? I really like him, but surely his teams are good at set-piece?

We should win 90+% of our own line out ball and 100% of our own scrums.

Losing two tight heads in a row is a god damn disgrace and went a long way to losing the game.

We couldn’t win our line out or scrum? You can’t win if you can’t do that.

Bobby - good points all.

FWIW my own view is that Thorn - the notable ex-forward - is making exactly the same mistake as did Cheika with the Wallabies in thinking 'I know all about forwards play, all I need is a micro-specialist scrums coach and I will do the rest of the forwards coaching work myself'.

This is often a fatal mistake that ex-forwards HCs make as so much of the task of building comprehensive excellence in all aspects of forwards play requires a specialist coach (totally different skillset to ex-player skills) whom has really studied closely the intricacies of these aspects where, for example, deep skills in defensive and offensive ruck work, forwards work as link men in broken play and the line out etc etc, will make the difference to a complete all-in team performance.

The best local example of this truth in practice is IMO L Fisher at the Brumbies. For many years he's made complete excellence (way and above merely solid scrums) in Brumbies' forwards play the hallmark of that team's competitiveness - and most weeks we see the crucial payoffs as the Brumbies consistently exceed the natural constraints of a small Canberra base.

I actually think the biggest weaknesses in the 2020 Reds skills - bar scrums - are in the forwards general play. And as you say, as but one example, having a pathetically poor maul defence in this era of pro rugby is unforgivable and often vastly costly in points. It's especially unforgivable from a Year 3 HC.
 

Jimmy_Crouch

Chilla Wilson (44)
The line out, maul, maul defence are not not up to scratch. The scrum also got fisted.

Surely this is Thorns remit? I really like him, but surely his teams are good at set-piece?

We should win 90+% of our own line out ball and 100% of our own scrums.

Losing two tight heads in a row is a god damn disgrace and went a long way to losing the game.

We couldn’t win our line out or scrum? You can’t win if you can’t do that.


That penalty just before halftime kicking to the line and messing up the lineout was a killer (we did this again in the second half also). The Sharks would have been very happy with the HT scoreboard.
 
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