School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[the baz]

Hey Hugh. wow, when you start a thread it really takes off.. have been off line for a while and this appears. Great conversations and some salient points.
My 2 cents - i know of many that have received scholarships\financial assistance\bursaries... to get them to attend a specific school, and this is for kings, joeys, view, scots, knox, st augs, and even the league schools of st gregs, westfield, and nudgee.
It happens, and we know it happens, but i think boycotting by the so called"gang of 5" is a bit rich.
should the premiership clubs boycott against playing sydney uni?
Scots were not that dominant, they were , i believe, joint premiers, please correct me if i am wrong. every club, school, association, has a dominant year or squad that performs.
The 2014\15 JGC is forthcoming - if one centre is dominant, should the others boycott? and before people say they cannot target players outside the centre - they can, and from other codes.
not sure who the coaches are at most schools, but i have viewed sessions at most of the schools and scots,view,kings,new, are excellent. maybe the schools should appoint new coaches and improve the standard of the players, after all, as coaches, is that the job?
I do hope that the focus and standard of gps and schoolboy rugby is not diminished after this "review". it has always been enjoyable to watch, the crowds bigger than some premiership games, and a great atmosphere.

 

[fsrugby]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/educ...elite-approach-to-success-20130924-2ucad.html

Someone at the Herald really wants to blow TSC out of the water. I dare say if you put some of the other schools under the magnifying glass, you wuld find some pretty high profile coaches and "specialists" going around.

TSC have broken a golden rule when dealing with the Media - never ask for a correction or retraction - When this happens they always think - 'obviously we have it right - we need to dig further' (and they do have it right!) - I wonder if Lambert took professional advice, before asking the SMH to 'Retract/Correct' - If he did he has been poorly advised.

All Scots need to do, to make this go away is to come clean and admit they have gone 'a little too far' and that they will come into line.

And yes we all know Scots are not the only School at fault - they ALL need to come into line. As has been said however - 'a few Schools have just taken it too far' - in my view 2 schools have gone way, way too far.

 

[The Incredible Plan]

Someone at the Herald really wants to blow TSC out of the water.

TSC are on the nose in a number of ways... Woolahra Council lost in the Lands Court opposing Scots expansion of their business centre on 18/9 according to the Wentworth Courier:

"The Scots College is allowed to modify its business studies centre after an appeal to the Land and Environment Court was upheld. The school made its case for its latest building plans at an on-site hearing at the Bellevue Hill campus on Monday. The hearing was organised after Woollahra Council rejected Scots’ application to modify its centre in July. The court’s written judgment is yet to be released."

Is the timing and some of the parlance coincidental?

From SMH on 15/9:

"Some of Sydney's elite private schools have been accused of engaging in an ''arms race'' as they expand their grounds into the city's most prestigious neighbourhoods.

The constant development of some schools has drawn in local governments and angered residents, some of whom are threatening legal action.

But the Association of Independent Schools claims councils are unfairly hemming them in.

On Monday, The Scots College will make the case for its latest building plans, rejected by Woollahra Municipal Council, when the NSW Land and Environment Court holds an on-site hearing at its Bellevue Hill campus.

Also to appear is the Concerned Scots Neighbours group, which has accused the school of concealing its growth in enrolments to push through building projects.

The school wants approval for a further increase in the size of its business studies centre on Victoria Road.

The resident group's spokesman Paul Blanket says it will consider legal action against Scots if the council does not address the school's compliance issues. ''What we're now seeing is a lot of these institutions move from what they were - local schools - to be almost global businesses,'' he said.

The MySchool website says the school has 1783 students, but Mr Blanket says it may be as high as 1920. Both figures are in breach of a cap of 1120 students for its Victoria Road senior campus and 500 for its Mansion Road junior school.

Scots rejects the assertion it has any outstanding council compliance issues with enrolments, but will not say how many students it has.

Principal Ian Lambert says this will be detailed in its soon-to-be-released comprehensive master plan.

''We believe the criticism now being directed at the college is deeply unfair and unreasonable, given that the school has, in effect, bent over backwards to listen and respond,'' Dr Lambert said.

Helen Proctor from Sydney University's faculty of education and social work says newer private schools are the source of the real growth in student numbers, but elite schools operate on a regime of building and expansion.

''It's like a sort of arms race where if Knox gets a new fabulous business studies centre then its competitor up the road, Barker, will go, 'I'll raise you one business studies centre and we'll have an incredible arts complex','' Dr Proctor said. ''It's very much fuelled by government funding'' because this frees up funds that would otherwise be used for tuition.

Knox Grammar has also taken issue with Ku-ring-gai Council's proposed rezoning and heritage conservation area. It says it will limit its ability to use surrounding properties for ''educational use'', and work to the detriment of the ''distinctive and dominant character'' of its school.

The matter has been taken up by the Association of Independent Schools, which has called for upcoming reforms to the NSW planning system to address councils it claims have adopted an ''informal policy'' of keeping schools within their existing boundaries."

 

[Quick Hands]

PaddoG, you are right on the money, the Kings HM is now deciding that the field is unfair. He didn't have much of an issue when he had a swag of Australian School Boy footballers and Australian Rep rowers walking through the hallowed grounds of Parrmatta.

Is anyone really surprised that Dr Hawkes has given his 2 bob's worth by way of a newspaper article? Seriously, this guy would have written and been written about more than all the other GPS Headmasters combined.

He's certainly never been accused of holding back his views.

 

[Quick Hands]

While the whole class warfare aspect is to be avoided, I do however think it's legitimate to question schools who have one hand out for taxpayer funds for various reasons and spending money with the other hand to subsidise sportsmen in pursuit of winning an 8 team school competition.

 

[Spieber]

It happens, and we know it happens, but i think boycotting by the so called"gang of 5" is a bit rich.
should the premiership clubs boycott against playing sydney uni?
Scots were not that dominant, they were , i believe, joint premiers, please correct me if i am wrong. every club, school, association, has a dominant year or squad that performs.
The 2014\15 JGC is forthcoming - if one centre is dominant, should the others boycott? and before people say they cannot target players outside the centre - they can, and from other codes.
not sure who the coaches are at most schools, but i have viewed sessions at most of the schools and scots,view,kings,new, are excellent. maybe the schools should appoint new coaches and improve the standard of the players, after all, as coaches, is that the job?
I do hope that the focus and standard of gps and schoolboy rugby is not diminished after this "review". it has always been enjoyable to watch, the crowds bigger than some premiership games, and a great atmosphere.

Fair observations re rugby but it is the nature of the basketball teams with which the other schools have their current problem.

 

[Brian Westlake]

Wow, who made this guy the policeman. As it seems the journos and schools are reading this thread (unless the use of 'Arms Race' in today's press was co-incidental) , give us some something.
If all the schools can do it, how much? 1 or 2 players, 10%, 50%, Five Eights count as double, wingers don't count?

Love this! Wingers don't count. Made my day so far![/quote]

Buster, wingers have never counted...

 

[Brian Westlake]

While the whole class warfare aspect is to be avoided, I do however think it's legitimate to question schools who have one hand out for taxpayer funds for various reasons and spending money with the other hand to subsidise sportsmen in pursuit of winning an 8 team school competition.

The situation with the media is going to continue as long as fodder is fed. If Drs Lambert and Hawkes continue to take braodsides, the fourth estate will just sit back and let them shoot each other in the foot (or mouth).
Grabbing a quote from North Parramatta is as easy as getting a conspiracy theory from the mundine camp. Stop the feeding of the flame and it goes out. Do what has obviously been asked at many a meeting by the AAGPS and for want of a better quote "pull your F$@kin heads in!!!"
Do this and the SMH have no barrow to push. Simple.

World domination has its downsides too.

 

[sarcophilus]

should the premiership clubs boycott against playing sydney uni?
Scots were not that dominant, they were , i believe, joint premiers, please correct me if i am wrong. every club, school, association, has a dominant year or squad that performs.

1 excuse a digression as a response to The Baz: In this place School Boy Rugby not Shute shield is the issue, and the Uni phenomenon is destructive at that level no club needs to have Super rugby players coming off the bench or rep players playing second grade colts. applying some control on this behemoth would be desirable

2.The current blue over an irrelevant and expendable sport that has been mentioned too much already is only an example and a "shot across the bows" or being used as a "last straw" as Rugby is clearly too valuable in this community. In this sport from reports scottttts have been very dominant.

This year Scotttts Rugby were not dominant against a railway sleeper packed just before the straw, and Given what I know you would know is more than a murmur about the U16 (in spite of the cloth eared protestations of other posters refusing to ask the relevant questions))and other grades in the Rugby there any potential performing Squad or year is not "organic" and is starting to look like some other lump of structural timber

 

[Quick Hands]

The situation with the media is going to continue as long as fodder is fed. If Drs Lambert and Hawkes continue to take braodsides, the fourth estate will just sit back and let them shoot each other in the foot (or mouth).
Grabbing a quote from North Parramatta is as easy as getting a conspiracy theory from the mundine camp. Stop the feeding of the flame and it goes out. Do what has obviously been asked at many a meeting by the AAGPS and for want of a better quote "pull your F$@kin heads in!!!"
Do this and the SMH have no barrow to push. Simple.

World domination has its downsides too.

The usual next step is a 7.30 Report appearance by Dr Hawkes is it not?

I'd imagine that there'll be plenty of tension over the tea and scones at the next GPS Heads meeting. The new guy from Riverview must be wondering what bunch of madmen he's got himself mixed up with.

 

[Hugie]

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive."

I like the analogy as this is from a poem by the most famous of the Scotts, Walter Scott, about Lord Marmion's pursuit of Clara de Clare and the deception and counter deception that followed. No doubt the Scotts boys are all obliged to study Scott at some point.

Interestingly Walter Scott's first trade was as a lawyer.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Is anyone really surprised that Dr Hawkes has given his 2 bob's worth by way of a newspaper article? Seriously, this guy would have written and been written about more than all the other GPS Headmasters combined.

He's certainly never been accused of holding back his views.

And is therefore known by all other school masters as "Him Tawkes"

 

[scaraby]

While the whole class warfare aspect is to be avoided, I do however think it's legitimate to question schools who have one hand out for taxpayer funds for various reasons and spending money with the other hand to subsidise sportsmen in pursuit of winning an 8 team school competition.

Thats always an interesting argument considering that if you spend money on private school fees you still pay taxes to prop up the public school system which you dont use. So you could make a pretty valid argument on who's subsididing who ...

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Alan Jones interviews Dr Lambert
http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/15686#.UkJZgCRzod9

Talk about (a) missing the point and (b) posing Dorothy Dixers.

Major problem in his position is that he agrees with Jones that its appropriate to offer good sportsmen a good education and that is what its about.
So if that's appropriate and he's right that there have been no inducements he has not been living up to his own values.

 

[Paddogreen]

Alan Jones interviews Dr Lambert
http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/15686#.UkJZgCRzod9

Talk about (a) missing the point and (b) posing Dorothy Dixers.

Major problem in his position is that he agrees with Jones that its appropriate to offer good sportsmen a good education and that is what its about.
So if that's appropriate and he's right that there have been no inducements he has not been living up to his own values.

Who is the former View HM that the Parrott so dislikes?

 

[It is what it is]

Alan Jones interviews Dr Lambert
http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/15686#.UkJZgCRzod9

Talk about (a) missing the point and (b) posing Dorothy Dixers.

Major problem in his position is that he agrees with Jones that its appropriate to offer good sportsmen a good education and that is what its about.
So if that's appropriate and he's right that there have been no inducements he has not been living up to his own values.

It was like Jones was Dr Lambert's golf caddy.
The only difference was that he not only selected the club for him, he teed it up and hit it for him.

 

[It is what it is]

Who is the former View HM that the Parrott so dislikes?

What a fantastic badge of honour to carry "The Parrot dislikes you".

 

[fsrugby]

Wow – I am loving this discussion – let’s hope that it results in some meaningful changes.

A few extra comments and thoughts

Bursaries and Scholarships are the SAME (lets don’t get technical!) – I will call them Freebies

Both are ok and accepted by most people – including those on this Forum – if things are handled within reasonable limits.

The parents of Freebies and the Freebies themselves are not the problem here – I am sure in the main they are all great people – who can blame them for accepting free (or part free) tuition at a great school.

Some of the Scholarship programs – eg Newingtons Tongan connection (which has been actively nurtured for 140 years) and the indigenous programs at Iggies and Joeys are just wonderful. They provide much to both the ‘Freebies’ and their families but also just as much to the Schools themselves.

My view however is that any Freebies should enter the Schools in year 7. Adding them late just introduces the amazing disappointment and utter disgust that has been experienced by many boys and parents.

The issue – as has been said numerous times in this forum – it is the degree – and a few schools (2) have gone way way too far.

Interestingly I have now spoken to numerous Scots parents since the poo hit the fan – all but 1 of them was very happy that the issue is out in the open – they hope that it will result in change. Can I suggest that instead of Scots getting in an external expert – who no doubt will find some way to say all is ok – that instead they spend some money on independently surveying their own parent base – it is clear that a massive majority of Scots and Newington parents AND students who know the real facts (please survey Parents that are in year 9 and up only) would all love to see change.

Can anybody answer this question with a yes?
Do you think it is OK that in the Newington 1st XV this year that 13 or 14 of the boys were on Scholarship (Freebies!), and only 1 boy in the team started at Newington before year 9.

If you can answer Yes, you are a much harder man than me!

 

[sarcophilus]

Did anyone see the Myth Busters episode where they proved you could polish turd

 

[Quick Hands]

Thats always an interesting argument considering that if you spend money on private school fees you still pay taxes to prop up the public school system which you dont use. So you could make a pretty valid argument on who's subsididing who .

I'm not talking about the fee paying taxpayers, they have a legitimate expectation of some taxpayer dollars going towards their son's education. The subsisdy I'm talking about is to the non-fee paying students.