Scrum Talk

[fatprop]

The Pumas bajada scrum was all about a concerted 8 man effort (and also a focus on getting the power through the hooker more than through the props) so you'd assume his focus will go far beyond the front row.

It makes sense to focus on the 8 men work, if we stay just worried about the THP we will be screwed, they are at best adequate. But with a full 8 working together maybe they can become better than the sum of their parts.

 

[Gnostic]

The main problem is that we have a few months before the WC, this should have been done many years ago.

My point MHCS is the massive improvement in the scrum they have shown over a very short period. Consider also the very low base they were coming off. Now while it can be argued that the Wallabies will not get the same level of improvement because they are not coming off such a low base, it also says to me that if Japan could do it in a year/season Australia should be able to achieve an even faster turnaround at the elite level, if sufficient focus and technical expertise is given to it.

But I do agree, this should have been adressed in 2006 after E. Jones was booted (do you see the irony in the Japanese scrum improvement) and certainly there can be no ARU/Coaching excuses post 2007 RWC.

I am astounded that when Foley left the Wallabies despite falling results no real changes have been made to the Wallabies coaching setup in this regard. The final nail in Blades coffin should have been the total failure of the Wallabies to adapt to the removal of the hit. They were so far behind the curve on that and it comes back to coaching ensuring the players have been upskilled in the changing dynamics.

 

[Chris McCracken]

Because the TH prop is the most important player at the scrum time. This is very easy to prove, if you look a scrum from above:

The TH prop has to push against 2 players: the opposite hooker and the opposite LH prop. While the LH prop only has to push against a player, the opposite TH prop.

The TH prop is using his two shoulders, while the LH prop only uses one shoulder, that's a big difference. Usually the front rowers with more experience play at TH prop and rookies play at LH prop. If you have a top class TH prop, you can hide your scrum problems, if Zirakashvili had been Aussie, Wallabies wouldn't have problemas at the scrum. With Zirakashvili as starting TH prop and Kepu as reserve, the scrum wouldn't be a HUGE problem as it is now. Wallabies would crush the Poms with running rugby.

As it happens, the Argentinian scrum focusses on the hooker and the power is distributed through him. He is the at least as important as the tight head in their scrum.

Whichever way you cut it, it doesn't matter whether you've never seen the inside of a scrum before. The best teachers are not necessarily the best at the skill. If you coach it and get results, that's all that matters.

 

[formerflanker]

As it happens, the Argentinian scrum focusses on the hooker and the power is distributed through him. He is the at least as important as the tight head in their scrum.

Whichever way you cut it, it doesn't matter whether you've never seen the inside of a scrum before. The best teachers are not necessarily the best at the skill. If you coach it and get results, that's all that matters.

Wasn't Ewen a tight head? If the "must-have-played-there" mantra is true, then we would have several world class tight heads by now.

 

[fatprop]

And every LHP spends his days learning to and then trying to disrupt every THP they play against, he must know something about the process as well

But that doesn't mean he has any idea how to teach what he knows

 

[Sully]

Wasn't Ewen a tight head? If the "must-have-played-there" mantra is true, then we would have several world class tight heads by now.

I'm pretty sure the QLD scrum got better under his coaching.

 

[TOCC]

Just watching the highlander games, I'd like to see the clock stopped from when a scrum is called until when the ball comes/penalty is called/pushover scrum scored..

I like scrums, but agree it's not good if scrum resets are taking up 7-10min of the 80min game.. It will also stop teams using the scrum as a time waster..



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[Brumby Runner]

Scrums in the Reds/Force game were a real mess. Think there would have been more than 7-10 minutes lost but not sure if it was the players or the ref at fault. I really thought that was the worst ref display I've seen for a very long time.

 

[Omar Comin']

Just watching the highlander games, I'd like to see the clock stopped from when a scrum is called until when the ball comes/penalty is called/pushover scrum scored..

I like scrums, but agree it's not good if scrum resets are taking up 7-10min of the 80min game.. It will also stop teams using the scrum as a time waster..

So then we'd have to watch even more actual time (not game time) spent on scrums. Not good for the spectacle of the game. It'd also mess with broadcast schedules.

 

[qwerty51]

It'd also mess with broadcast schedules.

What a stupid excuse. Just schedule it in if the clock stops. Who cares if scrums take ages, rather take ages than get them wrong. I don't mind watching a scrum for 10+ minutes if it's not using up other game time.

 

[Omar Comin']

What a stupid excuse. Just schedule it in if the clock stops. Who cares if scrums take ages, rather take ages than get them wrong. I don't mind watching a scrum for 10+ minutes if it's not using up other game time.

Why is it a stupid excuse? Broadcasters have a schedule that matches are supposed to fit in and currently do. It would make scheduling a little more unpredictable too. Some games would go 10 minutes longer than others.

And fine, you might sit through 10+ minutes of a scrum and not care. But a lot of people change the channel during long stoppages. It's not a good thing for trying to attract casual fans and people new to the sport. The problem isn't losing game time to scrums, the problem is that scrums are a mess and a killer of continuity in so many matches. Stopping the clock isn't a solution, it'd just be ignoring the actual problem.

 

[Sully]

Scrums qre a part of the game. If you don't like scrums you're watching the wrong game.
The ref in the reds force game kept reseting for prebinding which actually make absolutely no difference to a scrum but messes with people who can't think for themselves.

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[Omar Comin']

Scrums are a part of the game. If you don't like scrums you're watching the wrong game.

And please point out where I was suggesting scrums shouldn't be part of the game? I think most people enjoy watching a good scrum battle.

But scrums collapsing regularly, taking several minutes to set and consistently resulting in penalties that most people don't understand are what shouldn't be part of the game. Anyone that thinks it isn't a problem has their head in the sand IMO.

 

[topo]

I was amazed that the Reds could be awarded a penalty try with Daley doing all of his pushing on his knees!


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[Brumby Runner]

The scrums in the Chiefs/Brumbies game were epic, and those in the Rebels/Tahs game almost as good. Why can the scrums in some games be so strong and emphatic but in others they are nothing but a waste of game time (see Reds/Force game)? Is it all down to coaching? Or are some of the participants simply not strong enough but keep getting selected by their coaches for whatever reason? Or do certain referees have problems with how to set them and manage them?

 

[Strewthcobber]

The scrums in the Chiefs/Brumbies game were epic, and those in the Rebels/Tahs game almost as good. Why can the scrums in some games be so strong and emphatic but in others they are nothing but a waste of game time (see Reds/Force game)? Is it all down to coaching? Or are some of the participants simply not strong enough but keep getting selected by their coaches for whatever reason? Or do certain referees have problems with how to set them and manage them?

250 mm of rain?

 

[TOCC]

So then we'd have to watch even more actual time (not game time) spent on scrums. Not good for the spectacle of the game. It'd also mess with broadcast schedules.

Your argument doesn't make sense, scrums are going to occur regardless, this will ensure that teams aren't using it for time wasting in the dying minutes and also also so that fans aren't paying to have scrums take up 15% of the game time.

Also broadcasters have fudge factor built into the schedule already, football has injury time and so does the AFL, the schedule isn't an issue.




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[Quick Hands]

And please point out where I was suggesting scrums shouldn't be part of the game? I think most people enjoy watching a good scrum battle.

But scrums collapsing regularly, taking several minutes to set and consistently resulting in penalties that most people don't understand are what shouldn't be part of the game. Anyone that thinks it isn't a problem has their head in the sand IMO.

Agre 100%. They've become a blight on the game because of the way they are coached and refereed. All laws are enforced with missionary zeal except the scrum feed. So a team puts the ball in at 45%, so there is no contest for possession and then that team is essentially allowed to engineer a penalty for themselves. We hear this argument all the time about scrums being a contest for possession, when they're nothing of the sort. How many scrums at Tier 1 level are actually won against the feed?

The laws weren't designed for scrums to be like this and the NH scrum afficianados have been allowed to give the scrum an importance in the game above any historical precendent.

I appreciate the value of the scrum to the game, I just hate what it's become. I mean 10 minutes with 16 blokes falling over themselves in the one spot is not good for the game.

 

[Quick Hands]

Your argument doesn't make sense, scrums are going to occur regardless, this will ensure that teams aren't using it for time wasting in the dying minutes and also also so that fans aren't paying to have scrums take up 15% of the game time.

Also broadcasters have fudge factor built into the schedule already, football has injury time and so does the AFL, the schedule isn't an issue.




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I think what he's saying is that once the clock stops for the scrum, the pressure is then off referees, administrators, players and coaches to speed the things up. We'll end up like gridiron with a game lasting hours if those who put the scrum above all the other facets of the game are allowed to get something like this in. More down time = more time for the big blokes to catch their breath and thus less opportunity for the little fast blokes to make breaks.

 

[Gnostic]

The first thing I noticed in the first scrum I saw (that broke the Force LHP's shoulder) was the change in the binding of the Reds LHP at the time (Slipper?). I mean he bound and began the push then changed his bind from the long bind to an under/short bind then drove through the Force THP. which sheered sideays and collapsed on the Force LH side. Was the change in binding responsible? I don't know but, I was of the belief that it is illegal to change the bind.

Two weeks and two serious injuries to Force LHPs. Why?